Episode 4: Love, Marriage & Their Casual Relationship

Queering Premodern Asia is a limited series and the 5th season of the Nuances podcast about Our Asian Stories. Each episode explores different aspects of sexual diversity in premodern Asia with commentary from guest scholars. Episodes are divided into a narrative portion, and a discussion with a guest co-host from the queer Asian community.

Ep. 4: Love, Marriage & Their Casual Relationship

Introduction & content warnings
Marrying for love
China
- Male-Male marriages in Fujian
- Marrying ghosts
Iran – the many forms of love
How the definition of love and marriage evolved in Korea and Japan
Vietnamese village customs
Female agency in South East Asia (Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines
The only people without marriage
When did love and marriage tie the knot?
Discussion with Dr. Badie
- What monogamous people can learn from polyamorous folks
Outro

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References:

van Leeuwen, Richard. “Kingship and Love.” Narratives of Kingship in Eurasian Empires, 1300-1800, Brill, 2017, pp. 163–97. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1163/j.ctt1w8h2gc.10. Accessed 6 July 2024.

Sang, Tze-lan Deborah. The Emerging Lesbian: Female Same-Sex Desire in Modern China. University of Chicago Press, 2003. Pp. 91-94

Coontz, Stephanie. Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage. Tantor Media, Inc, 2016.

Deuchler, Martina. The Confucian Transformation of Korea: A Study of Society and Ideology. 1st ed., vol. 36, Harvard University Asia Center, 1992. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctt1dnn8zj. Accessed 11 July 2024.

Chen, Pei Jean. “Problematizing Love: the Intimate Event and Same-Sex Love in Colonial Korea.” Queer Korea, edited by Todd A. Henry, Duke University Press, 2020, pp. 117–45. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctv11hpn09.7. Accessed 10 July 2024.

Haruko, Wakita, and Suzanne Gay. “Marriage and Property in Premodern Japan from the Perspective of Women’s History.” Journal of Japanese Studies, vol. 10, no. 1, 1984, pp. 73–99. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/132182. Accessed 4 July 2024.

Farris, William Wayne. Population, Disease, and Land in Early Japan, 645-900. BRILL, 1995.

Hendry, Joy. Marriage in Changing Japan: Community and Society. Routledge, 2011, pp. 18, 22.

Sladen, Douglas, and Norma Lorimer. “Queer Things about Japan : Sladen, Douglas Brooke Wheelton, 1856-1947.” Internet Archive, London : A. Treherne, 1 Jan. 1970, archive.org/details/cu31924023496502.

Reid, Anthony. “Female roles in pre-colonial Southeast Asia.” Modern Asian Studies, vol. 22, no. 3, July 1988, pp. 629–645, https://doi.org/10.1017/s0026749x00009720. Accessed 7 July 2024.

Shih, Chuan-Kang. “Genesis of Marriage among the Moso and Empire-Building in Late Imperial China.” The Journal of Asian Studies, vol. 60, no. 2, 2001, pp. 381–412. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2659698. Accessed 7 July 2024.

Khuá̂t, Thu Hò̂ng, and Vietnam Population Council. Study on Sexuality in Vietnam : The Known and Unknown Issues. Population Council, 1998. https://doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.15215.84640. Accessed 7 July 2024.

Additional sources:

Guest scholar:

Sachi Schmidt-Hori, professor of Japanese literature & culture at Dartmouth College.
Wu CunCun, ⁠⁠professor of Chinese literature at the University of Hong Kong⁠⁠.
Niloofar Rasooli, doctoral fellow at the Swiss Institute of Technology

Guest co-host bio:

Dr. Manijeh Badiee (she/her/hers) is an Iranian, queer, bisexual, polyamorous, neurospicy, cisgender femme professor, psychologist, and CEO of Poly Therapist Psychology Corporation..

Book mentioned by Dr. Badie:

Thouin, Marie (2024). What Is Compersion?: Understanding Positive Empathy in Consensually Non-Monogamous Relationships

Let’s connect!

You can also follow us on all social media: @nuancespod

Episode transcript: (discussion portion only)

Please note that the transcript is auto-generated and invariably contains incorrect or missing transcriptions.

[00:00:00]

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Hello, I am Manijeh Badiee, an Iranian queer, bisexual, polyamorous, professor and psychologist.

LAZOU: thank you Manijeh so much for taking the time to co host this episode with me.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

LAZOU: So I shared the script with you. I’d love to know what you thought as you were reading through, What came to mind? What was your reaction? Was it surprising? Did you know a lot of this stuff? Tell me.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Well, it was very surprising. I did not know these at all and it’s prompted a lot of self exploration for me. because I haven’t read a lot of queer histories, it was very delightful, to read about how queerness was expressed in these sometimes very public ways, and so, It was very beautiful to read that and also the non monogamy aspects of it how that was sort of normalized into the society [00:01:00] to some extent and so that was really Amazing to read.

LAZOU: Yeah, so do you want to go into some of the sections? I know you have notes, so let’s go through your notes.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yes, definitely. you know, I was really struck reading about, a collection of societies being like this because I think there’s echoes of this today, which was China, Persia, India, uh, this idea that there was room for multiple love sometimes, but that specifically loving a woman was a threat to society.

And it was a distraction from like, manly duties. So that was, you know, just,

LAZOU: Not great.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: yeah. but it also struck me as like, one of the reasons people I think have such a strong reaction to polyamory because in the contemporary form, a lot of us practice it in a very egalitarian way where women fems have access to partners also.

And I honestly think that’s a big reason people have such a strong reaction to it because I feel like for [00:02:00] men, you know, and masculine folk, it’s been more considered acceptable. so that was really striking because I was like, Oh, you kind of see that today. but I also really liked how in China there were bi men just publicly existing.

That was so amazing too. You know, like, I feel like as a bisexual, even within queer history, sometimes we’re pretty much erased, you know, or not seen as, part of this history. So I love that I love that you talked about that.

I love that, there were, bisexual men also that were practicing their bisexuality in these different, ways. So that was really interesting.

LAZOU: Yeah, it seems like bisexuality was actually the norm, especially among Men, I mean, we talked about this in episode two, we don’t know as much about women, but probably there too, but documented about men. You know, the emperors all had male lovers, they’re literally in their history records in China, Vietnam, Korea, bisexuality was the norm and part of it too was. It was not an [00:03:00] identity. It was just something you did. just because they had sex with men didn’t make them a different kind of man. with a caveat that there was a class hierarchy usually involved, and who was the active versus passive male lover.

but yeah, it was, it was very normal.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: That is so interesting I think about it with gender today and just being Out and queerness because what research has shown is that if people find out that a man Has slept with a woman with other men, that immediately calls into question his heterosexuality.

Whereas if women date women, or have sex with women their queerness is dismissed.

I don’t know, it’s probably also cause our notion of masculinity is so narrow, right? like it doesn’t change your identity, like you were saying, like identity versus practice.

Right. but I think we think about that today in these gendered ways as well.

LAZOU: Yeah, for sure. And that is a remnant of the history as well, right? In [00:04:00] history, female female love has been erased throughout time. Um, been trivialized as we talked about in the episode. Even the, plays that had lesbian characters are like, well, they’re, they’re lesbian. Yeah. But, you know, they both want to be with the same man too.

Right. there’s always a man involved. So what we’re seeing today has inherited all of that history.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s, that’s such a good point. Yeah. I think it’s all tied to that. together, like that erasure of femme femme queerness. Absolutely.

LAZOU: Yeah, what did you think about the other sections? Did you have any notes,

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yes. So,

Fujian

I love that the family’s accepted. their queer lovers as part of the family. I thought that was really just a beautiful thing it’s so mind blowing because I feel like you just don’t hear about that at all.

as a queer person, especially when I grew up, you know, in the eighties and nineties, just don’t really hear about that. so it was really beautiful read that. also tinged [00:05:00] with sadness because when they sometimes separate like if they were together But then one of them had to fulfill their duty to you know Marry a woman and have children and sometimes they would Understandably become, very grief stricken and so that that was that was sad But it was also beautiful to read that there was this, very loving acceptance of, queer partners.

so, overall, I thought that was really, beautiful. And the fact that, like you said, the love story sometimes didn’t end, sometimes they would still continue. So that was, that was pretty amazing as well.

LAZOU: Yeah, I was shocked when I learned that this was a thing. In episode two, we also talked about the women who were able to get married as well. personally, I love the golden orchid society part because they’re like, okay, I’m going to have to marry a man. How about a ghost?

I was like, that is problem solving. I like it. Yeah,

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: know. And I love what, that you were [00:06:00] like, when a ghost becomes available, everyone’s like, I want that. That’s the hot commodity goes, but it’s so clever. Right. I just think about our survival strategies, especially as femmes, women, like so clever over time, feminists, we always find ways to persevere and find these clever strategies. So Yeah. The ghost, that’s so awesome. I feel like that by itself should be like a whole book or something

LAZOU: You mentioned not having access to those stories growing up in the 80s and 90s. Do you want to share a little bit where you grew up, what that was like? You know, when did you figure out you were queer? Did you even have the words for that? Like, tell me.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I mean, I grew up in Texas was born in 1980. So I grew up in the eighties I was born in Iran and, we lived in Germany for a little bit and then moved to the U S permanently and, spend All of my childhood, adolescence and early twenties in Texas, pretty much.

I think I had maybe a sense, like, I remember as, When I was [00:07:00] 17 saying that I was attracted to girls, but I feel like I knew it before then. I just didn’t really have the language for it. And at the time there was no representation of queer folk. This was way before Ellen.

It was such a big deal. in the late nineties when Ellen came out on her Original sitcom and that was such a big deal. And like, she got fired at the time, but that was the first example of queerness. that I had, you know, and now I know that there were these spots of it that I didn’t have access to because I also was an immigrant, a lot of cultural things about queerness that people grow up with here that they relate to in terms of media, I didn’t have access to as, you know, as a first generation immigrant. it was so invisible.

It was just so invisible. Queerness was just not talked about. It was just very invisible. I remember I had a little bit of a crush on my friend and my mom, sensed it. And I think it was, very negative, a negative response. and just in general, I think you know, within [00:08:00] Iranian society. I think it, just tends to be conservative. so it was just very invisible. until I was in early adulthood well, and there was more queer visibility at that time. I was able to be more out about my queerness and be more comfortable with it.

But I don’t remember any, portrayals of queerness growing up.

LAZOU: Yeah, you also didn’t know anybody else, like among your friend groups or anybody that you could talk to about it?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I do vaguely remember there was one student who had two moms, but I, I guess I didn’t ask about. like, just to give you an idea of where I grew up it’s called Plano, a suburb. the teacher said one time, I’m not going to talk about abortion because it is too controversial, but I am going to talk about gay marriage and why that’s wrong. So that was from a high school teacher that I had. And it’s also advanced program. I was in the international baccalaureate program. This was one of the teachers in the international baccalaureate program. That was, Talking about this, you know, so so you know I’m sure there was other hidden messages but even eight nine years later when my [00:09:00] brother and sister grew up there were queer people at their school that were out About being queer but for me, other than like the mom of that one student Yeah, I don’t I didn’t have any queer friends didn’t know any queer people.

LAZOU: Yeah, that must have been very lonely. So when you did finally, understand that you were bisexual did you tell your family right away or how did that work out?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Not right away. No, I mean it took me probably a few years to come to terms with it actually But I think right away. I did tell people that I Really cared about and I felt safe with so I didn’t tell my family, but I did tell know loved ones friends That I trusted so I did I did come out in that sense know, even when I was 17, I acknowledged it out loud to people but to my family I didn’t come out until I mean my mom like mid 20s, I think and my dad like in my 20s 30s.

and then my grandpa, I’ve told him, those were the only people that I [00:10:00] felt like I have to tell in person. Everybody else, it’s fine if they find out via social media, because I have the most closeness with them that I feel like they are the ones that I feel responsible for telling and my siblings My siblings I told well before that but my parents it took a long time It took a

really long time and then it took a long another long time for me to be able to be out on social media,

cause my, mom did not want me to be out on social media.

I, as an immigrant, I center her perspective so much. and so I didn’t come out for a long time, but now I’m like, well, I

tried it your way and it didn’t work.

LAZOU: Yeah. have they made their peace with it now

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: so my dad was so great about it. Actually, so I told both of them about being bisexual and polyamorous at the same time. And my dad was like, I love that you choose your own relationships. And he was actually very affirming and very proud. And I was like, Oh, I should have told you sooner.

LAZOU: Oh, that’s so sweet.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: yeah, it was really good. My grandpa to my grandpa didn’t make a big deal about [00:11:00] it. He was very, very kind. But my dad’s reaction just his. Just to hear him say like, I’m proud of you, you know, and he’s always just been such a role model to me. And it was just really, so beautiful.

It was one of the best responses you can get for coming out. and he’s like, I was just so glad you told me. with my mom and other members of my family, they kind of accept it but they would prefer that I wouldn’t talk about it in Iranian culture and actually U. S. culture too coz they’ve they’ve studied this. People prefer people who are cheating. they think that’s more moral and ethical than somebody who is polyamorous and not lying about it and having multiple relationships. Like for some reason that’s considered more ethical in people’s minds. thinking about the stories that you, presented in these histories, it’s really interesting how, certain things are, hidden. Right. And certain things are, public And, um, and so like, I think in Iranian culture, it’s like, you don’t talk about it.

Like, so yeah, [00:12:00] maybe that’s okay, but just keep it kind of behind closed doors. sometimes that perspective is there. There’s this acceptance of me as a person, but maybe a slight preference for me not to, not to be so out about it. But I think we have a good balance where it’s like, okay, like we don’t necessarily have to agree on this. So we can just, agree to disagree and it doesn’t have to stop me from living my truth. you know, and it’s okay, if you don’t like it, but maybe just vent to friends about it you know, it’s not something that I should center necessarily, if that makes sense.

LAZOU: I don’t know if it’s the same in Iranian culture, but in Chinese culture, I think one of the things that makes it complicated is let’s say I came out as queer, I think my mom would feel like that reflects on her, whatever judgment the community has is not just on me as a person, but on my parents, on my family, on my entire community.

And so I think there’s a [00:13:00] pressure for her to preserve the honor of, you know, the family or whatever that means. I wonder if that’s also part of Iranian culture as well. I know it’s very prominent in Chinese culture.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Absolutely. Absolutely. this idea that, yeah, your reflection and just the collectivism, you know, this is not just about you. It is about your community. And honestly, I love that. I love that value. And I, and I hold that value. Although, I think I’m still Affected by, you know, American values as well, but I do try to hold that value.

Always consider my family and consider my community. And that’s why I think it was so hard to come out because I think if it were just about me, then okay, it’s just me. Like I’m the only one, that is going to be affected. Right. and actually, they’ve done research on this too, where it’s more. beneficial for white people to be out than people of color sometimes because you get certain benefits Whereas people of color sometimes lose things especially like ties to your community Which maybe have been big [00:14:00] part of your survival, you know and a big part of your values in your life So that did really take me A long time to grapple with I was like, it’s not just about me I can’t just look at it as about me maybe me being out is like am I doing it in this very western Way that reflects, you know a different value system and I’d grapple with it for a long time and what I ultimately came to realize though is that Iranian queer people are also my people just like I don’t Center privileged groups like I don’t Center white people when I talk about racism For example, I’m not gonna Center necessarily straight Iranian people when I’m talking to queer people.

Like I’m, talking to Iranian people that are queer, which percentage wise, there’s more people in Iran that are identified as queer than here. I think it’s a little over 10%. there’s a lot of people that are Iranian queer. so I ultimately came to the conclusion that yes, I can still center family and I can still center my community, but I can’t necessarily center every community [00:15:00] at once, right? So I, for this, if I’m talking about queer stuff, I’m going to be centering Iranian queer people, not heterosexual Iranian people.

So therefore, I feel like I’m still being oriented towards my community, but in a way that feels ethical and, consistent with like power dynamics that I want to challenge.

LAZOU: Yeah, that’s such a great point your community is not just straight people, you know, why not speak to the most marginalized in your community to begin with?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yeah, exactly, exactly, because I mean, how are things going to change unless we bring those voices forth that have historically been silenced, that, are still silenced very much so, you know, so, that’s such a part of my values.

LAZOU: Yeah. That’s awesome.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: the Iranian one, of course, I have to comment on that one. I love the idea of Love this was talked about in the previous episode as well this idea of love how it Sort of applied to all these things right it was very expansive and it [00:16:00] wasn’t necessarily confined to a specific Parameter or something like that.

So I loved that. Like the, I love that it extends to the land and your beloved and liberation and. I just thought that was really beautiful. and it’s funny because there is a recent book that just came out in polyamory.

It’s called, What is compersion by Dr. Marie Tuan. And basically compersion in polyamory just means that you’re happy that your partner is with Someone else it’s like the joy you feel when you’re partners with someone else So in her research in this recent book what she’s found is that one form of compersion that came out is that joy you feel?

But also in other contexts non romantic context so that joy you feel when your friend Accomplishes something great and how we don’t have the language for that, right? so it was really beautiful to read this and be like, oh my people did have um This language for it, you know, that was so broad.

because we confine it and we compartmentalize it. Right. But, ultimately there’s such [00:17:00] joy in so many things and love in so many things. so I thought that was really cool and tied into some recent, work. That was interesting.

And same thing with the Japanese notions too.

I thought the idea of the love and the expansion, the different ways, forms of love was very. very beautiful.

I really was so delighted to read about Vietnam, and it’s really so amazing. that there was throughout time, these consistently progressive attitudes about gender, 15th century, 18th century, like women had agency.

And I love that local festival where they sing to each other. And then if she gets pregnant, she can choose. So it’s like,

LAZOU: I know.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: that’s so cool.

LAZOU: I’m like, wait, so does the guy get to say no if he doesn’t want to?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I mean, it would be kind of a good like reparations, right? If he can’t just kidding. Yeah, that was just so cool. And because also, there’s this book called sex at dawn that talks about how like, After agriculture basically is when monogamy was imposed because [00:18:00] it became really important to have people to work with you in the agriculture ownership became really important. when I was, reading this and it was saying it was happening up to like 1945 that they were doing this where it didn’t matter necessarily who’s the father that she still gets to choose and that this was happening. in 1945.

LAZOU: Well, I don’t know if that particular practice went all the way to 1945, but up to 1945, there were those local festivals. I don’t know when they dropped certain aspects of it. these are just a few of the festivals that they had in Vietnam. There were a whole bunch more in the paper, but I want to focus specifically on the ones that were relevant to marriage and polyamory.

And, you know, the other one where it was even married women can just go declare their love for our younger men. and their husband was like, okay, sure, whatever. And that was fine. It was like, okay, that is very different.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That was so cool. And just [00:19:00] throughout Southeast Asia, it was just such an amazing history. Like I want to read a history just about those countries how it was so, egalitarian by so many standards. you just think, oh, it doesn’t have to be like this.

it’s like, wow, we take so many of these things for granted, but It’s just really amazing to read these. So yeah, I really appreciate you sharing these with me because it’s set me on a whole, journey. And yeah, I, I, it’s really amazing.

LAZOU: Oh, thank you. Well, I’m glad. that’s, that’s the whole point of the series is to bring those stories that we didn’t even know were around. I was very surprised when I looked into Southeast Asia because I, I had started my research doing a lot more reading on China, partly because there’s a lot more available in English about China.

so I expected that most of Asia would be kind of similar to China and India, but I was very surprised to find that Southeast Asia had a very different [00:20:00] attitude towards like everything. I mean, China is very patriarchal for a long, long, long time. And yeah, I hate that my ancestors went and spread all this patriarchal bullshit everywhere.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yeah.

LAZOU: definitely Yeah, but I mean that that was so many societies I feel like you know but I hear you. Yeah, I mean, I I hear you Why’d you why’d you spread it?

Yeah, well I just read that part.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: yeah That’s also why it is so awesome to read these histories you get a different side Right because well at least with the Iranian I feel like there’s a lot of negative, you know aspects that people think of now with the way the government is there’s so much trauma in the population that there’s lots of difficult aspects to it.

But then you read these stories and it’s like, you see a time where just things were more expansive and loving. So it just makes these stories even more important. I feel like people should make a children’s book I don’t even know, but I think kids should really have access to this [00:21:00] information because I can’t even imagine what my childhood would have been like if I had access to these stories then, like I probably would have realized myself sooner. I would have had so much less shame, you know, I would have had more pride in myself, at a younger age, at a much younger age. And so yeah, these are just really, really, important stories.

And we don’t, and also just, we don’t have to compartmentalize love so much. I think that’s also what I took away.

We compartmentalize love so much, like romantic and then everything else. Right. it wasn’t always like that. That was another takeaway for me there were these spiritual and all these different, ways of love and it didn’t have to be so divided and so, specific.

So,

LAZOU: yeah. I’m curious, when did you realize that you wanted to be polyamorous?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: well, it’s not about wanting to be polyamorous. It’s just that I always have been polyamorous. I think before I had the words for it, I never was able to fit into monogamy. the specific rules of monogamy, I really [00:22:00] tried. To fit into those rules. And I, and I wasn’t able to do that.

because I was still sometimes attracted to other people. sometimes I would be, at a party and I felt like I would have fun with this person. We would make out or something. And then my partner would just think everything about the relationship changed.

And I was just, you know, completely different person, our relationship, everything was called into question. And I always was very honest. I never lied about anything. I always told the person right away, but I felt confused because I didn’t think it changed my feelings for that person.

But it seemed like for that person, it really changed how they saw me and saw my feelings. So, I never really fit into it, but I didn’t have the words for it until, I think it was 2009 when I came across it was like a blog. Salon was doing a, series on non monogamy and it was specifically from a woman who was non monogamous and it just clicked a light bulb for me because she was really owning her sexuality.

She was owning her [00:23:00] non monogamy and proud of it. And she’s like, it never worked for me. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s me. Like there’s something else I could be. And I had, I had basically told myself, well, I’m just going to not be in a relationship. That’s okay. I like being alone. I like my own company, so that’s all right.

But then when I found that I was like, Oh, I can’t be in a relationship. But I can do it in this way that is authentic for me and is consistent for me. I started identifying as non monogamous like 2009, 2011, I would say was when I really became polyamorous, which is allowing multiple emotional commitments as well.

So like non monogamy is like a big umbrella of different. Things that just aren’t monogamous. but polyamorous is a type of non monogamy where you allow multiple love relationships, multiple commitments. And that really just was consistent with my values. It’s more egalitarian generally how it’s practiced or that’s how I practiced it.

LAZOU: What do you mean by that? That it’s more egalitarian?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I mean, not everybody practices it this way, so I should, caveat because I [00:24:00] always think with language, we defer to how someone defines it for themselves. But generally the way that, I think polyamory, how it’s distinguished from other types of non monogamy is that all genders have equal access to partners.

So there’s historically been non monogamy throughout time. Where men only had access to multiple partners

LAZOU: and

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: femmes did not have access to multiple partners. So within polyamory, there’s this overall sense of values that you try to unpack those kinds of things. so you really try to unpack like, what does it mean that, you know, I’ve been taught. that my romantic relationship is the most important above all others. unpacking that in that sense, egalitarian, but also like genders having equal access. So for example, let’s say someone is polyamorous as a couple and then they’re wanting to date, other people as well. they’re dating separately, but let’s say the couple, considers themselves to be the highest priority, right? no matter what. and so egalitarian polyamory says that we [00:25:00] might automatically have that response, but it’s up to us to unpack couple’s privilege, for example, for me, I’m, married to like legally married to my partner that I nest with.

I live with. So there’s inherently some couples privilege in that, right? Like our relationship being a legal marriage is seen as more important. Right. And we have shared things like shared finances that also give us couples privilege, but as someone who practices egalitarian polyamory, I always try to unpack that and not try to like. make that consciously a priority. if my other partner needs me, I’m not going to say, Oh no, I live with this partner. Therefore I’m going to choose this partner every time because they’re my legally married partner. So egalitarian in that sense that you’re aware of those power differences that might exist in your relationships, but you’re trying to unlearn them and unpack them.

And, That’s a, lifelong process. So those are some of the ways I would say, I would say considered more egalitarian generally.

LAZOU: [00:26:00] Yeah,, I mentioned to you when we first spoke, like, polyamory is something I don’t know anything about. I’m wondering what are some.

Misconceptions that are common that you encounter, or maybe some stereotypes that are not right.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yes, that’s a great question. this is actually a bias therapists have as well. So unfortunately sometimes therapists can cause harm with, non monogamous folk because of this bias.

But this idea that, You’re non monogamous or you’re polyamorous because something is wrong. Either something’s wrong with you Something’s wrong with your relationship. Like you’re not satisfied in psychology. We call it pathologizing like assuming that there’s something mentally ill about this, something that is unhealthy. so that is a really big, misperception. and it’s not bored out by research. So what we do know is like polyamorous folk give the same ratings of relationship satisfaction, you know, trust, love as their monogamous sex. [00:27:00] sometimes even give higher ratings for certain things like for communication, just because in polyamory, you just have to have, a lot of communication, I feel like if you’re going to sustain it, you know, because everybody decides what their own boundaries are and everything.

So it’s not like there’s a template, you just go with what makes you feel safe, what, what liberates you. so yeah, that’s a big one.

Let’s see, what are some other ones I think like, for example, like I have a, female partner that is. Comfortable being out and I think sometimes especially within the Iranian community this idea that Your poor husband. Oh poor guy, like he’s just staying at home and You are just going and just doing whatever with your lady friend again, there’s this sexism too like the same people I’ve seen react in a much less harsher way, actually not in a harsh way at all when it was a man. who was cheating.

There’s this assumption of morality that somehow non monogamous people are less [00:28:00] moral. That just isn’t true.

people think that you’re very sexually risky. Actually, research shows the opposite that if you are ethically non monogamous, so like you’re being open about it. you use safer sex practices than someone who is unethically non monogamous. So someone who’s cheating actually uses less safer sex practices. So that’s another common one.

Sometimes polyamorous people can be fetishized like, Oh, you’re having sex all the time and that’s all it’s about. It’s, just about sex. And okay. that’s not true especially for BIPOC. A lot of us, it’s about family and it’s about community and it’s about unlearning aspects of white supremacy, culture of capitalism that have shown up in our relationships, these ideas of ownership, that we’ve, we’ve sort of internalized. unpacking all those things. And so a lot of us practice it from a decolonized way, a very, Again, egalitarian, but trying to decolonize what we [00:29:00] know about love. So that is, something that a lot of polyamorous people I think commit to, but again, broad spectrum. So not everybody, but I see that perspective generally more within the polyamorous community than in other communities I’ve seen.

LAZOU: yeah, last time we talked, I asked you if you thought it was like sexual orientation, where you’re either are or are not. And you said sometimes, right? do you want to talk a little bit about that? cause for me personally, I’m definitely monogamous.

I cannot imagine being Poly like that is not something that sounds appealing to me at all like in any respect yeah, so i’m fascinated by this like Tell me more

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Well, I mean, you know, and that might be part of your identity. Absolutely. monogamy could very much be part of people’s identity as well. Like that’s how they see, their relationship.

so that’s absolutely valid. for me, I think it is so much part of my identity to be polyamorous. It’s very consistent with other aspects of my life I don’t necessarily limit other connections [00:30:00] in the way that I would in monogamy. So my big value is I want people to be as authentic as they can.

And for me, it feels authentic to be polyamorous. And it also feels authentic to give my partners, to allow them that freedom too, because that’s consistent with my value. So polyamory is, Like who I am and I feel like I wouldn’t, I could, I feel the same way, like you said about monogamy, like,

I’m like, well, how, like, why? Like, I don’t understand. but yeah, like I feel the same way and, and it’s such a part of my identity. like just the pieces I was telling you about, the egalitarian, like all of that connects to my poly amory, but also other parts of my life.

And this idea of just love expanding, you know, that when I love someone and I love someone else, like that just expands that love that multiplies my love for my other partner, for other aspects of my life and, expands my So, it’s just so tied. To my values of freedom, authenticity and [00:31:00] love, and the expansiveness of love. so for me, it’s an identity. some people consider it like a relational orientation, similar to, like you would say a sexual orientation, you know, or romantic orientation. So it’s still something that’s fixed about you. there are people that are, and sometimes they refer to themselves as ambi amorous.

There are people that are okay with. So they can be just as comfortable and safe in a polyamorous relationship as they can in a, monogamous relationship. so for them, I assume maybe the way that they might see their polyamory is more like a practice. Because they can practice it. here like a behavioral practice, right?

But in other contexts, they can also be monogamous. So it’s not so much like an orientation. there’s never anything that’s everybody, right? Like I have

to always say that, but there are people that are more fluid, I guess I should say, when it comes to that.

And also, you know, people change over time, and that’s just anybody, that’s just anyone. So I think any of these are subject to change, [00:32:00] but non monogamy is not inherently more unstable than monogamy. Or, just like, you know, queerness is not inherently more unstable. people are like, oh, bisexuality is a phase.

It’s not inherently more stable. Like, I think technically everything in life can evolve, but

you know, it’s still just as stable as a structure as monogamy, if that makes sense.

LAZOU: Yeah, I think with polyamory though you have the extra complication that Our world is set up for partnerships that are two people, right? when it comes to taxes, when it comes to being in a officially recognized union, like all the things are set up for couples. so there’s a lot to navigate there.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Yes, absolutely. There’s so much to navigate it really takes a lot of, intention and effort to unpack. if that’s something you want to commit to, like unpacking your couple’s privilege, it’s a lot. I remember when I got married, I mean, I was very happy, but I also felt like there was a part of me that was really sad [00:33:00] because people were all of a sudden, So exalting this relationship and so almost exalting me as a person because I was getting married and it almost hid my queerness because it made me seem like I was in so it’s like Yes, I’m very happy to be very visible about this love, but I also feel like it hides a little bit about me because my queerness is just as important to me. my polyamory is just as important to me. And for me, it’s not the case with everyone. There are definitely bisexual. monogamous people. It’s, you know, same as, as any sexual

orientation. But for me, they’re, tied together. Like my bisexuality is tied to my polyamory because I have always liked, energy from multiple genders.

And that’s part of what I love about polyamory is being able to, pursue that. but I want to clarify that that’s not like, an inherent, link there.

LAZOU: yeah. So to close out, I would love to know what you would like listeners to take away from this episode.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: I guess it doesn’t really matter, your [00:34:00] relationship style. I think what we can be intentional about though, is thinking about how, colonial structures, how capitalism, how these things have affected our relationships. And the beauty of these histories is that it shows us that there are these different pathways and there have always been these different pathways. and within our own, Asian communities, it’s so amazing to see. Don’t take for granted maybe what you think you know be intentional and, and there’s nothing wrong with like you’re doing, you know, talking to people who are polyamorous just to understand because that can only help you strengthen your own, identity.

and so I think it’s, just be open, try not to have those automatic responses. because you just might, learn something that maybe you can take in your relationships. So

LAZOU: I’m wondering if there’s a practice. In polyamory that you wish monogamous people would bring into their relationship

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: The sexual monogamy and emotional monogamy is very [00:35:00] valid and can be very healthy. But I think the toxic monogamy aspects that can come in are like, Oh, my partner’s not allowed to have friends of, this gender or, you know, I think those maybe just just think about where they come from.

do they still work for you? Cause if, they work for, a relationship, And neither person is being harmed or silenced in it, but I think monogamous folk, because there’s already like this is what you’re supposed to do.

Right. So people don’t tend to question any aspects of it, the parts that I would question are. You know, the possessiveness, maybe this idea that like one person can fill all your needs where we don’t expect that in any other context. we don’t say, Oh, well now I have one child.

I, all my needs are fulfilled or like I have one friend. So that’s fine. I don’t, I don’t need any more. thinking about love more expansively and connection more expansively, I think that can only, enhance your relationship, you know, when you are allowing, these multiple ways of, loving that are not necessarily romantic or sexual, but you’re allowing for that.

And that I think [00:36:00] helps, everyone just be more authentic and feel more loved. So, this expansiveness of, love and not trying to own it. And, you know, I think the biggest thing is honestly navigating with love, not fear. anything fear based, whether it’s polyamory, monogamy, whatever, If it’s a fear based rule, I just don’t think that’s a good strategy for fear. You know, I know as a therapist that that’s not, healthy. The way that you process your fears is by facing them. So I think try to navigate with love rather than fear and be open to, evolving your perspective. Sometimes you can, change certain pieces without changing your structure.

LAZOU: yeah, I had a section about this specifically, but I moved it to another upcoming episode, which is marriages used to be either matrilocal or patrilocal and the couple would live with extended family. And then eventually we became neolocal where the couple moves away from both families and now the couple, they have to satisfy every need of that other person.

Right? Like, the spouse is the [00:37:00] entire support network, is all the child care, is all the emotional support, all of that. so yeah, I will be covering that in an upcoming episode.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Awesome.

LAZOU: another follow up question I had was, you mentioned, everybody has to communicate better. What are some, communication things you’ve seen in polyamorous relationships that are super healthy that maybe more monogamous people should adopt?

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: let’s take a step backwards from communication and talk about first, like we don’t really learn strategies or ways to express our emotions. And then when you don’t know how to express your emotions, it’s really hard to communicate them. We don’t even really sometimes. identify our emotions. So I think finding ways it could be therapy, but it could be, you know, other emotional work that someone might do, where you learn okay, what is this feeling that I’m having in my body? what is going on? am I sad? Am I disappointed?

you know, and. How does this relate to my partner? Because I think a lot of times when you have feelings about someone, what is our [00:38:00] first response? Oh, it’s you. you did this, you know, you cause this, right? if they’re related to someone, then that’s often the assumption that’s made. I think, for communication, learning to identify, what am I feeling right now? And then communicating that with I statements, like, instead of being like You made me so angry because you were late again to pick up the kids, you know, which is a valid, concern and valid reason to be angry.

But instead of being like, you made me so angry and you always do this and you know, and instead just try to be direct and communicate your feelings. Like I feel angry right now because I try to get there on time every time. And It seems like you’re not doing that. And I feel angry and, and I, I don’t want to blame you right now, but I do feel angry and you know, maybe I need to take a walk or like do some self soothing and then I can come back and talk about it. so being able to just communicate directly, like not in passive aggressive ways, but using I statements and taking responsibility, like I’m feeling this way. that I think can, go a long way [00:39:00] just using, um, I statements.

And then I also think, we often talk about things when we’re super stressed about them.

when they have gotten to the point where we’re so upset. a different approach could be just scheduling check ins maybe once a month, like just setting aside some time, neither one of you, are hungry or, tired, you have to set aside a good time. And you just talk about, what’s been going on. You do check ins in the polyamory community. There’s a, format for it. It’s called radar and it’s on the multi emory podcast made a great worksheet. It can’t be definitely used in, in monogamous context too. but basically it’s like, a lot of different areas of life that could, be relevant to a relationship and talking about them in a calm way. instead of, you know, when you’re talking about them in conflict, which you don’t really hear each other as much. And, you know,

LAZOU: that’s a great point. scheduling some time to discuss issues before they become bigger issues.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: absolutely.

LAZOU: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this [00:40:00] episode with me. I will put a link in the show notes to all your socials and your website. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

Dr. Manijeh Badiee: Awesome. Thank you so much.

I’m excited.