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GUEST BIO
Soo Jin Lee is a licensed therapist, the author of ‘Where I Belong: Healing Trauma and Embracing Asian American Identity,’ and a guiding force at the Yellow Chair Collective. Her journey from an undocumented immigrant to a mental health advocate shapes her unique approach to healing. When not writing or in session, she’s reconnecting with nature on a hike. Let’s dive into her story!.
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DEFINITIONS
- DREAM act:short for The Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act, is a United States legislative proposal to grant temporary conditional residency, with the right to work, to illegal immigrants who entered the United States as minors—and, if they later satisfy further qualifications, they would attain permanent residency. It was first introduced in 2001 and has been reintroduced multiple times since, but has never gotten majority votes from either house of the U.S. congress.
- In 2012, President Obama signed an executive branch memorandum called the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals initiative, DACA for short, which provided a temporary reprieve from deportation to qualified unauthorized immigrants who came to the U.S. as children. In 2017, the Trump administration announced the program’s termination.
MENTIONED
”Where I Belong: Healing Trauma & Embracing Asian American Identity”
TAKEAWAYS
- Undocumented migrants take great risks to come here because they believe in the American dream so much, but often have no chance of getting a work visa if they are poor or uneducated. People will do anything if it means a better future for their kids.
- Undocumented migrants are often very self-conscious about their status and eager to prove they are hard working, and self-sufficient. They are diligent about paying their taxes and steer clear of anything resembling government aid. Many, like Soo Jin’s father, even create businesses that employ Americans. This is not the portrayal we see in the news very often, but it is an important one.
- Undocumented migrants can be smart professionals, they can be Asian, they can be entrepreneurs and employers. They aren’t a monolith.
- Mental health and wellness can and should look different depending on who you are and what you value. Especially for our elders, healing can come from sharing memories, teaching the next generation their family recipes or their favorite games, instead of going to therapy and talking about their traumas.
CONTACT
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Host: Lazou
Additional Music Links:
Nuances Podcast – curated Spotify | Apple Music playlists with past guests, hosts & more Asian diaspora artists.
Video with captions
Transcript
LAZOU: Our guest today is Soo Jin Lee, a licensed therapist, the author of “Where I Belong: Healing Trauma and Embracing Asian American Identity” and a guiding force at the Yellow Chair Collective. Her journey from undocumented immigrant to mental health advocate shapes her unique approach to healing. When she’s not writing or in session, she’s reconnecting with nature on a hike. Soo Jin, thank you so much for taking the time to do this today.
SOO JIN: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me today.
LAZOU: Let’s start from the beginning. How old were you when your family moved to the US and what did they tell you about the move at the time?
SOO JIN: I was around 10 years old when I moved to the States, and at the time when I was in Korea, I already knew that we were gonna be making the move. And it was actually very exciting for me.
Year 1999 is when my father had moved to the state by himself actually first, and he wanted to make sure that he can establish job, work, financially that he can, he’s able to support us.
He was actually in New York first. And he was looking for a job out there, but he couldn’t, so then he decided to come to LA where there was a lot more of a Korean immigrant community in the LA area. And so he was able to connect with a few people and then decided that he was going to move the rest of his family, including my mom, my younger brother, myself. My younger brother was like six years old at the time, and I was around 10 years old.
LAZOU: Did your dad have status or was he undocumented as well?
SOO JIN: It’s a little bit complicated because my dad came in the year 1999, the rules and regulations were a little bit different. So technically my dad was undocumented. He was able to get a job at a factory. And there was a lot of undocumented immigrants that was working at the factory at the time. Eventually the goal was that he would be having his own factory and he was able to do that because his social security number that he was able to receive at the time was still active. It’s a different journey if he came a year or two later, which is when my mom and myself and my brother came.
LAZOU: So why was that two year difference so important? What changed?
SOO JIN: And I think immediately I see you smile because I think we know the historical element of what’s occurred between those next two years, right? Is the 9/11 attack has happened and because of the 9/11 attacks, of course all of the America Society and the way that we view immigration has changed. And so there were a lot of new rules and regulations and laws that, of course, I could not understand at the time, and I still have a hard time comprehending exactly all the courses of the changes before and after of the 9/11 attack. All of the little things that has occurred has made it really difficult for all immigrants actually. Yeah.
LAZOU: One thing that I find is often missing when I read articles about undocumented migrants, you, you always read about, oh, these people wanna come here and whatever, but . There’s very little about why, what’s the reason why these people are coming here and taking huge risk to do so? what makes a couple leave behind everything they’ve ever known and they ever loved taking their two young children to a new land where they may or may not speak the language and the, And a new land that has a history of oppressing minority on top of that. And where they don’t know what necessarily will happen I think there’s not enough focus on just how treacherous that journey is and what makes people motivated to do it nonetheless.
SOO JIN: Yeah. so I’m speaking for my own personal experiences, right?
And I have to say that even amongst the undocumented immigrant experiences that I have one that is a more fortunate one. But there’s a lot of undocumented immigrants that have come here because they were actually fleeing from war. They were fleeing from life or death situations and they really did feel like either they had to move out of their homes and countries and their towns or that they had to uh, give up their lives, right? Like literally physically that they would be done, they would be dead.
And so for me and my family, it wasn’t life threatening events that were occurring at the time that have made us want to leave the country. But for my parents, it was more about an opportunity that they felt like they could provide for us.
And I feel like this is a little bit complicated, right? Because, you know, Korea at the time in the eighties, nineties, the early two thousands when we came. It’s a time when there was a lot of growth opportunities economically also happening.
So for them, they grew up very poor. One thing that really stuck with me. This is part of my trauma when my dad was really just pushing me and pressure me when I was very little about what my goals and dreams are.
He’s like, you have to be this one thing, otherwise you’re gonna be like master of none, right? So pick one thing, and I need you to be best at it. And that’s how you’re gonna be successful. And I remember I was so frustrated with this pressure that he was giving me, and I asked my dad, what did you wanna be when you grow up? Like when you were little. When you grow up, what did you wanna be? Because I really wanted to understand, right? And he said this, he said I wanted to have food. That was my dream. I. Just to have food the next day. That was my dream.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: That conversation has stuck with me. Right. I. And so to my parents, that was the dream. He saw that his friend had moved to the States and they were exchanging postcards. They were sending each other photos like with the Empire State Building, ’cause his friend had moved to New York, and these really amazing scenes where he was only able to see those in the movies and he was never able to put himself in that picture before until he actually saw his friend being reflected in these scenes.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: And then that’s when he told himself like, I, I have to do this and I want to do this because I want my kids to grow up in a world where they can see themselves to be in any scene of any movie.
LAZOU: So what was that like for him? From getting that picture and seeing his friend in front of the Empire State Building to him landing in New York, what happens? I.
SOO JIN: So he lands in New York and I can’t exactly speak for his experiences. I imagine that it was full of anxiety and excitement. I remember receiving photos from him.
Like I mentioned just now, my, my dad had moved to New York first and a lot of undocumented immigrants, Asian undocumented immigrants I’ve heard that this was part of their experience as well, or their parents experience as well, is the way that he did that was he got a tour visa. And so then he was able to fly into the country with a tour visa, with the intention of overstaying the tour visa, and a lot of people were doing it that way because it was just the easiest way to get a visa for somebody that was uneducated.
So my dad was able to have a high school degree, but no longer than that, and my mom just graduated from middle school. She wasn’t even able to graduate from high school. And so for them, it’s really impossible for them to try to find a job out of country in the United States, as you can imagine. And so to them this was their way to be able to find a job is first let me land in that country and then I’m gonna be looking for a job. And then I know that I can go through the system to be um, applying for a working visa then. That was their intention.
So he came with the tour visa. He landed and he has a very limited time, like the tour visa was six months and so he had six months to try to find a job and establish his family. And so I am imagining all sorts of excitement because he was taking all these photos and sending it to me, right?
And we were exchanging letters, I remember as a kid. And so all the excitement of the opportunities that he is imagining he’s going to be providing his kids.
And at the same time, the pressure and the anxiety of it all too, right? This is it. We can’t mess up, right like this. I am putting all of our lives at risk to be able to bring them here, not knowing what’s going to happen.
The thing is my parents, and I hear this from a lot of immigrants, right? They truly believe in the American dream. They really believed that no matter what legal consequences they were going to have to bear, they believed that we were still going to have an education and that was their number one thing, right? And that we would still be able to find ourselves with a better lives for the future and better careers than if we were to be in Korea.
LAZOU: Yeah. So the naively believed that it would be a little bit easier than it actually turned out to be .
SOO JIN: Yeah.
LAZOU: But yeah, so what I’m hearing is that they really believe that if you come here and you wanna work hard, you can succeed, you can make a better life for yourself. And it was something that they didn’t feel was possible for them back in Korea.
SOO JIN: Right? Yeah.
LAZOU: Again, we said they, they assume that the process would be a little easier than it turned out to be. Do you think that’s a common misconception with people who are coming here overstaying the tourist visa?
SOO JIN: I wanna say no. I think they knew it was gonna be hard. I think they knew that there would be some consequences along the way, but I think they were just willing.
LAZOU: Hmm.
SOO JIN: right, the, The hopes and dreams that naiveness right as you speak, that was just greater than what they thought the challenges were going to be.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: And they were willing, and I think we see this in a lot of Asian family households, right? That the parents, especially the older generation parents, they’re willing to give up anything. They’re ready to give up anything and everything for their children.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: they show that by literally doing that, right, leaving the country.
LAZOU: yeah. . Once you got there, your mom and your brother you got here. What was life like on the day to day for you? Was it easy to like, get into a school and, get settled? Did you have a Korean community around to help? Did you speak English at the time? Like how was that?
SOO JIN: Yeah, it was very difficult for me to make the adjustments. Really now looking back, especially as a therapist right now, looking back at my own childhood, I’ve really shut down a lot. Making the adjustment from being this bright, very outgoing personality that I had. I ran for a class president when i was in first grade and I was like, rounding up all the kids in the neighborhood I was pretty like loud and rowdy. And my brother was the same too. My brother was only around five or six at the time, and he used to love riding the roller blades. That was like the thing back in the days, and he would ride it all over the place. And everyone in the neighborhood knew him as the Rollerblade kid because he was so tiny and he was going up and down the hills with his rollerblades. So I feel like in a lot of ways we didn’t have a lot of fear. And I have to say we grew up in a very not very, but we did grow up in a smaller town in Korea. And it wasn’t as developed. I remember there was this new development that was starting to take place in our neighborhood. And for the very first time, this new development was going to have playgrounds. And that was like the biggest thing ever as a kid. Right? So you can imagine the environment that we were growing up with, right? There were no computers. There was one child with a computer, and we would all gather at their house, try to watch this magical monitor thing, that was the environment I was in. And then to come here, it was a complete culture shock in every which way possible. Right? Because I think it would have been a culture shock if within the same country, if I was just going to Seoul, like the biggest, city from my small neighborhood,
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: But then to go beyond that, even beyond that with a completely different language and the only, you know, types of people that I’ve seen on TV that were outside of my race were actually physically here and alive and walking and talking, and I have no idea what they’re saying. It really did feel like I’ve just walked into this movie scene where I didn’t feel belonged at all. I knew immediately this isn’t my home. And so my, my body and my mind have really started shutting down. And it was a way of what I call in the book fawning, where I’m trying to submit to everything that was, that was surrounding me, right? Just keep the smile on and pretend like I belong here. Pretend like I am supposed to be here.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: And the other change was my mom was a homemaker in Korea. She didn’t have a job and when we came, she started working at a restaurant. She was working 14 hour days and my dad was also working 14, 16 hours a day, and so they. They would drop us off at school and then their workday would begin we would get pickup from the school and we would get taken to afterschool program. And then they would actually drop us off back home at around six, 7:00 PM. And then we would just make dinner for ourselves and then go to sleep and my parents would be coming home after we fall asleep.
And so that was also a huge change as well, is that I never got to see my parents really,
LAZOU: Yeah that’s tough. So in your book, you mentioned a few things that you know your classmates were able to do that you weren’t allowed to do, or that it would have consequences if you did. Do you wanna mention a few of those things?
SOO JIN: Yeah, I knew that we had a secret in the house. And I somehow knew that I was undocumented. My mom has never mentioned it. She’s never used the term undocumented. And now that I try to think about it, I don’t, I don’t even know how she would say it. in Korean because she doesn’t speak English
But the way that she. have told us that we were different was we were never allowed to go anywhere close to the airport because my mom had this fear that we would be taken away at the airport. She probably you know, saw news about undocumented immigrants.
And she probably picked that up from that, So the airport was one. thing. We were never allowed to be on a flight which means that when other kids were trying to get permission slip signed to go on field trips, that was out of state in middle school, and high school, like going to Washington DC was like this big field trip thing that kids got to do. And I knew immediately that I didn’t even attempt to ask my parents about that because that was just something that I grew up with that I knew not to ask about it. I knew that my mom had this fear about the airport and the flight, and so I didn’t even touch it. I’ll touch that subject. The other thing, was around the FAPSA.
Oh,
My high school was really great and I know that this is not something that is part of the American curriculums system. And Wherever you are, you may or may not have had teachers that emphasized this, but FAFSA is an application for applying for federal grants and scholarships so that the students can get these grants for college or even just loans, right? And it’s a one systematized application, and our homeroom in high school taught you how to do these things, and part of the teaching was to fill them out and to prove that you did right? because the high school really wanted to emphasize that they graduate students that go off to co college, Right. , it looks good on them.
LAZOU: on them.
SOO JIN: My problem was I wasn’t allowed to though
To me, I am an undocumented immigrant, which means that I already knew automatically that I did not qualify. It disqualified me from grants and any kind of federal, systematic educational support at the time.
things have changed.
Since, and I know that there are
more opportunities now and resources now for undocumented immigrants. Here’s the thing. I feel
Like even
if the resources existed when I was in high school, I don’t think
I would’ve known to look for them either.
LAZOU: yeah.
SOO JIN: knew that I wasn’t allowed to do them. ‘ cause that’s what I was taught, that I’m just not allowed, that I just don’t belong in this space. Right? And so I have pulled myself out in a lot of opportunities too. Even if there may have been instances or things that perhaps an undocumented immigrants may have been able to apply to, especially given that I was also in California, right?
LAZOU: Yeah. Yeah. So the fear of getting caught. Was more than the risk of trying for something.
SOO JIN: Yeah. exactly. It was very much fear-driven.
Every day. It’s on an unconscious level a very fear-driven uh behaviors and lives that we were leading. Even just as something very simple as I remember I bought these pair of shoes and in order for me to return the shoes as a high school kid, they asked for an id. If you were a minor, you had to have your parents basically to help you to return. these.
And because I knew that my mom didn’t have an identification. Of course we had our passports , but my mom also made sure that those passports are very protected and that they were not shown to anyone because it has to stamp that our visa was a tour visa, right? And so she was afraid that anyone would ask, where’s your visa? Although, no one would really know or care for it if you’re an actual american citizen. You wouldn’t even know what to look for . But she was just so afraid. right? And so she would not carry any connect identification around. So then I knew that was not, a part of it. And so I just remember throwing out the shoes so that we can forget about it.
LAZOU: Yeah. It’s fascinating though, that as a child, you were 10 years old and your brother was, you said five or six.
And your parents never told you that you were undocumented, but somehow you knew, and I assume your brother did too. It’s amazing how much a child can soak in just from, observing the adults around them.
SOO JIN: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
That amazes me too, till this day that there was never an explicit conversation around who we are we doing? here, and why are we behaving the way that we are as a family, or why do we have all these secrets, and yet we just know. We just know to protect ourselves. We just know that our parents are trying to just protect us and that we have to do the same.
LAZOU: yeah. Did you know of any other kids who were in that situation or no?
SOO JIN: No, not at all. you know, even as an adult, I don’t know that many asian friends that are undocumented or have had the experience of being undocumented.
LAZOU: Yeah. I assume you are a US citizen now?
SOO JIN: I am not actually.
LAZOU: No, you’re not
SOO JIN: that’s been a
Yeah. Funny that you ask. It’s been a conversation between my husband and I,
Because clearly I just said my husband, which entails that I’m married, that’s a whole nother story about being undocumented and being married which is another way that a lot of people get citizenship and, we actually did decide to get married early so that my status can clear and I can have an easier life for myself, and my career, but we knew that we were going to be married. It was just the date that we have decided to be married. We just pushed that a little bit earlier. when I say this story, a lot of people have a lot of mixed feelings about this, right?
as you can imagine, because of the way that the stigma and undocumented immigrants are being portrayed within marriage, right? That they only get married to stay here.
The thing is. I did get married to stay here and I got married to also live a. life that is a full with my husband, right? that’s just a part of anyone’s marriage right? That you wanna be with your spouse.
LAZOU: Yeah,
SOO JIN: So why doesn’t that belong in my story too.
LAZOU: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s funny because I also got married to an American and I, at the time I was working in high tech, so I had a visa to work in the us. But then I decided to leave and then . We got married, so I got status to stay here.
Um, And even though I could have stayed at the corporate job and retained my status, I still wondered whether anybody would think that I married for the status. it’s such a. Stereotype that you can’t help but wonder like, is that what people are gonna think? And then I’m like, okay, whatever.
It doesn’t matter, but it is something that you think about.
SOO JIN: Yes, it definitely is. And my story is a little bit complicated, even more so because I had a really hard time informing my husband and his family about my situation. Of course, my husband himself, like given the relationship that we were having and building and the future that we were, trying to create together, he knew the stories that I was coming with.
When it came to what it was gonna mean for him and his family. That became a difficult conversation for all of us, right? Because of the stigma. That his family, like both the Primary family like, my in-laws, but also beyond that, right? His cousins and all of these other family members that were also immigrants and the way that they were carrying these stigma around like what it meant to be married to an undocumented person.
LAZOU: Yeah. Talking about the stigma around undocumented people, what are some misconceptions that you’d like to dispel about undocumented immigrants based on your experience?
SOO JIN: Hmm.
Guess the first thing is we’re here. and I am a professional because I think when I explain to people that, oh yeah, I grew up undocumented. To them, it blows their mind that I am a professional and I’m educated and that I’m smart, And I lead a very typical life. I think the way that media portrays undocumented immigrants has been deceitful, Or that they’re here in an agenda for themselves. or that they are criminals even, right? And so when I tell them about my experiences to them, it’s surprising that I can be educated
LAZOU: Yeah. the media has concentrated their coverage of undocumented migrants to uneducated people and all the racist stereotypes that,
Are very problematic.
And I think a lot of people also don’t realize that even though you’re undocumented, . You are still paying taxes, you’re
SOO JIN: Mm-Hmm.
LAZOU: Contributing to, to American society and also you’re paying taxes, but you’re not receiving a lot of the benefits of that.
Do you wanna talk about that?
SOO JIN: Oh my goodness.
Yes. thank you so much for bringing it up,
my dad.
He started working with his tour visa, right? To try to find a job and then try to apply for a work visa. So my parents they had applied for a working visa. Through the process of that being Approved, they went through a lot of journeys because economy had turned and the factory that they were working for had shut down.
And then my dad had started his own business of having a factory. And then he needed to find a sponsor like a new sponsor basically. And so then he had to reapply for new types of visas. And through all of that process, because he is still in the process of receiving a legal status. They’re considered undocumented. there’s enough documentation to be able to pay taxes. So they don’t qualify to be able to receive anything that a resident would be able to receive or a citizen would be able to receive any kind of grants for small business, let’s say. ’cause that’s been big after Covid too. They didn’t, they couldn’t qualify for any of those things and yet they still have to pay taxes. And my parents were very diligent in being able to pay taxes because, and they really wanted to make sure even the health insurance and things like that that they wanted to pay out of pocket because part of the application and the interview process for getting a citizenship, especially at the time, was that they would ask you what kind of aid you have received from the government and they wanted to make sure that they appear very self-sufficient and that they’re adding value to society and not taking anything away from the citizens.
LAZOU: Yeah. I gotta ask, like healthcare, how did that work? Because I am in California right now. I don’t have a corporate healthcare insurance provider. I go through covered California. It is ridiculously expensive
SOO JIN: Oh yeah.
LAZOU: Were you able to go through something like Covered California or do you just pay cash for services when you need them?
SOO JIN: I think there was a period of time, I’m pretty sure that they didn’t have any kind of health insurance in general, but they had an immigrant lawyer who had helped them navigate a little bit of being able to get coverage from private insurances.
They didn’t quite apply for any kind of government aid. Like I said, they tried avoiding it, which meant that they were paying a lot out of pocket to be able to do those things.
LAZOU: Yeah.
SOO JIN: I was fortunate because obviously until I was 20 something right, that I was able to be under my parents with the health coverage and then afterwards I was able to qualify for the Obama’s Dream Act. And so I was able to apply for the Dream Act and that’s how I got to have a status for a little bit. It was a working status that I got to have. It didn’t grant me permanent residency um, but I was able to legally work and be paid an actual livable wage to be able to work, and then went through the process of being married and getting a permanent residency.
But for a very brief period of time, I was actually undocumented by myself and the family because what had occurred was there was a lapse in between when my parents got their permanent residency and I was already an adult. And that’s what qualified me for the Dream Act was that my parents were able to go through the process of their own.
But along the way, I’ve outgrown the age where I could qualify as a family for them to be able to get a visa with me.
LAZOU: So what did they have to do to be able to finally get their status here?
SOO JIN: So my parents found a sponsor. A work sponsor and they were able to go through that process of getting that visa and then permanent residency as business owners.
LAZOU: That’s great. So I wanna talk a little bit about, you mentioned the Dream Act that it gave you permission to work but not necessarily become a permanent resident. Did it offer ways that you could go about to do that or was it just a temporary working solution?
SOO JIN: So about the about the Dream Act, which then qualified me for this dACA status.
I had went to college and I went to, I ended up being able to go to a private school. As I mentioned initially, I have the privilege of being able to have parents that was able to economically make that work for me. the year that I was supposed to graduate from college I was having a lot of odd jobs like babysitting and tutoring and all of these things I did. knowing that no one files for tax for them, And it’s just like one-off gigs, right? Where you just get paid cash. And I wasn’t sure. what I was gonna do after I knew that I wanted to become a therapist and I wanted to do art therapy, and so
LAZOU: So
SOO JIN: all I knew was if I wanted to go become a therapist that I was gonna have to apply for a master’s degree. I wasn’t sure how I was gonna pay for that ’cause at that point my parents had already told me that they wouldn’t be able to continue supporting me with my educational endeavors economically. They would love to but they couldn’t and so I was just starting to pick up all these odd jobs and I, and I said, I know that I can continue staying here if I am in school. And so I had applied for my master as an international student. The thing is, I didn’t have an international student visa, but if you’re a foreigner, the rules in different schools might look at things a little bit differently and depending on where, what state you’re in. But in california, I was able to apply just as an international student for my master’s degree without an actual visa. Going through school, I wasn’t sure if I was, gonna get through, but. with the DACA status. I was able to start working which meant that I was able to be granted a two year temporary working visa. So that gave me the ability to graduate because I was able to hold an actual job. And then I remember that once I graduated, it was the same thing. I was able to have a job.
My first job as a therapist, And I remember the HR, ’cause my work visa was very temporary, right? Two years is a very short time and I had applied for it in my master’s program, which meant that after I graduated.
I had maybe a few months before it was gonna expire. And so when I applied and I got into this position, I remember the HR asking me, so What’s your plan after this? Her question, was basically, are you gonna ask us for a visa?
Right. And I had told her I’m planning on being married and so I was able to get a job.
LAZOU: Yeah.
I want to talk a little bit about your book that just came out. Tell us about your book. Why now, and what do you hope people get from it?
SOO JIN: My book along with my co-author, Linda, we wrote this book in the midst of Covid. We realized that there’s so much trauma that was occurring in the midst of covid with people’s isolation, and there was a re occurrence of people’s generational trauma that we were starting to witness on tv. The violence that the Asian community were witnessing was really haunting them again, right? Haunting us again. so then we needed to have a space where we can process these traumas. But once we started having these spaces where we were inviting people to have conversations around trauma, especially given that a lot of refuges and immigrants that have come from southeast Asia countries, they have also experienced war. And so to witness violent on TV was just re-traumatizing them. And so when we started having these conversations, we realized that we can’t just keep trying to process these over and over again. That’s not actually helpful for our community, members.
But what is helpful is to be able to reflect our past stories and the way that our identities are linked to build community together. Alongside that, we also realized that we needed to have some educational portions as well.
So that’s what we started creating our workshops and support groups around, was educating people about like, where do we come from? Why are we having all of these trauma reactions? What do they actually look like and how do we actually heal from that? But the way that we do that is actually through storytelling. That we don’t forget about ourselves and where we come from, and to see ourselves be reflected by other people’s stories.
LAZOU: yeah.
SOO JIN: And so that was our in-person and virtual groups that was happening. And then we realized that that’s the experience that we wanted to have in a book. We didn’t intend on being a book. We always thought that this was going to be an experience that we get to have together in a community, but a literary agent had approached us and said, you know, this should be a book And so we were like, actually, you know what? I think it should because then it reaches a bigger audience to be able to learn and be reflected.
We were getting calls from people in the Midwest saying, I’m the only Asian in this part of my town. In my neighborhood, I’m the only Asian and I want to be able to see an Asian therapist. How do I do that? And we have no resources. And so we said, you know what? A book would be a great way to find them resources.
And so our book is comprised of a lot of personal stories just like the one that I’ve told today in this interview. But a Lot of people have submitted their stories and we’ve interviewed a lot of people to talk about their stories. Because our Stories are all intertwined and the ways that we relate to each other and the ways that other people’s stories are reflected onto our own is an important way that we find healing.
LAZOU: Yeah, I think it’s also a great way to see not just within the Asian diaspora, but also with other immigrant communities that we have so much in common, so much trauma in common too.
SOO JIN: Oh yes. Yeah.
LAZOU: But you mentioned something that I wanna touch on a little bit. You said some, people would reach out to you and say, I want to have an Asian therapist and I can’t find one.
As a therapist, how important do you think that is for somebody to be able to find someone who maybe looks like them or maybe shares some kind of background connection. Maybe they’re also immigrants or, something like that. Because I have had quite a few guests mentioned that they have gone to therapy and
YA lot of times it would be a white person and they wouldn’t understand the nuances, the cultural things , and they would tell them things that they felt they couldn’t implement culturally in their own family. Like setting hard boundaries, for example, was a big one.. How does that play out for you?
Like when you were studying and becoming a therapist and those things came up like. What’s going through your mind, how do you adapt that?
SOO JIN: Yeah. Yeah.
I Think first part of your question is how important is it right to find somebody of your background? It’s less about the background. I feel like it’s more of the understanding of that background. ’cause you could have an Asian therapist that really has not done the work of their cultural identity and historical trauma work, then You might as well just see another white therapist
LAZOU: Great point. .
SOO JIN: So it’s.
really more about the journey of like actual understanding of what it means to be an Asian living in America in this stage of life of what we’re going through. We do have Clinicians that are second generation. We have therapists that are fourth generation Asian Americans, and we have clinicians that are also first generation or 1.5 generation.
Like how I identify myself and all of our experiences look a little different, right? Just because we’re all Asians doesn’t mean that we carry the same amount of pressures and weights. However, there are some shared Family experiences and values. And so I think there’s a little bit of an overlap, right? But as long as we have done the work ourselves of understanding that nuances of what it means to live in this country as me, who look like me. And what does that mean for you? That also look like maybe similarly, but also carry a different storyline and historical line. As long as we’re able to understand that, then that’s a really good therapy relationship.
LAZOU: And there’s definitely sections of our diaspora that are buying into this model minority myth that, oh, we only got here because we worked harder, which is totally not true.
We all work hard. Right. How important do you think it is in our healing journey to learn about other communities and what they’ve gone through? And not just focusing on our own pain. ’cause I think that’s something that is missed a lot.
SOO JIN: Yes, for sure. I think when I talk about historical trauma, it has to. Right? It has to involve other minority members in America. Historically, the way Asians have always been pitted against the black community, it lives in the history trauma, right? It lives in that historical context of defining who we are as Asians, and so it is very important that we’re able to expand. If we’re actually doing the identity work of understanding our culture, our sense of belonging, then we automatically would be expanding that work to other elements what the culture implications are of being here.
LAZOU: One thing that is very common among Asian people, especially older generations, is that there’s a lot of stigma around mental health What Advice do you have for people who are. In that space where they might need mental health help. They might even know that they need it, but they aren’t maybe in denial.
Maybe they’re afraid to look weak or to bring shame to the family by airing their dirty laundry. You know that these are common ways that people have thought about it or sometimes they just don’t want their family to worry about them. I heard the story on NPR the other day, this teenager. She said she didn’t want to tell her mom that
She needed therapy because her mom is already super stressed and overworked and the finances are a problem. So what advice do you have for people who are in that situation?
SOO JIN: Yeah.
And I get this question a lot. I wanna say, because you started off with asking about like the first generation, older generation immigrants and how they can seek help, right?
Or the implication of seeking help and then what we can do.
For a lot of children of immigrants, I get the question ’cause now that we’re, aware, we’re talking about this right?
You have me a mental health therapist as a guest talking about this, which means that our listeners falls under that category of the children of immigrants that are carrying that burden and saying I understand the importance of this and I know that my parents carry that historical trauma, intergenerational trauma, and they need help. And so they always ask me, so how do I get them into therapy? And my answer to them is, perhaps therapy is not the answer to them.
The way that we understand mental health comes from a very westernized lens. It comes from psychology, and the psychology comes from white men. And so how are we expecting with all the historical trauma that we’re trying to understand, that we’re.
asking them to fit in to the norm of what white men is telling us health looks like. So then we return back to talking about what are ways that they might find healing? And it might actually go back to more of the physical and spiritual elements. If we can be open to what mental wellness looks like in all elements of our lives, whether that’s relational, physical, spiritual, and mental and emotional, which are all linked anyways, at the end of the day, then I think we might be a lot more open to other avenues that is healing to them. That is mental health to them.
LAZOU: Yeah. So what are some examples, that would be ” not therapy”, but something that could be healing.
SOO JIN: Certain conversations are really great, right? Having some kind of emotional conversation’s really great. However, if it’s really not within their language, then that’s not a good starting place for the older generations.
One of the things that I mentioned right in the book, and it was really important to write about, is the fact that we share stories, together. And it might not be specifically a story that is talking about our emotions. But at the end of the day, if we’re sharing a story about food, about games that we grew up with perhaps, or our neighborhood and what our home used to look like. All of these elements, right? These are emotional topics, if you think about it. And one of the thing that I find a lot of people relate to is food. Can you learn a recipe from the older generation that they would like to pass down to you, that is important to them? Or would you like to learn a game that you can play together with them, with the older generation? So I’ve asked a lot of, my Chinese friends and my husband is actually Chinese. So uh, talking to my in-laws, like I’ve asked like, we should learn Mahjong.
LAZOU: yeah.
SOO JIN: This is going to be healing. This is how we get into mental health with our parents.
LAZOU: Yeah. That’s great. And finally I wanted your thoughts on apps like BetterHelp. And I’ve seen articles that they might potentially use ai. So I wanted your thoughts on that because I’ve heard a lot of ads for them and also a lot of conflicting data points about people who have tried using them.
SOO JIN: Yeah, I’m gonna go a little bit beyond just like BetterHelp and these apps. They exist because our policies and our healthcare system is broken. Because it’s not affordable to have mental health therapists, then technology can be invested into making them more affordable, more accessible. If human to human interactions of actually seeing a therapist that is culturally adept and equipped to be able to identify your real needs and understand all of these historical traumas and intergenerational traumas the ways that I just expressed how wellness. can be approached differently depending on who you are and what your story looks like, all of that. If that was actually of value in the medical system, then these apps wouldn’t even exist. It wouldn’t be part of our conversation.
And so I think in one way, a part of me is really saddened that this is a growing field in which we’re going towards in our medical field in general, not just mental health. It continues to neglect the real need.
It’s not about the app or not. It’s really being able to advocate that these interactions with your doctor, with your therapist is important because I’m a human and I need a human to find healing.
LAZOU: Yeah, Before I let you go, I have the last section of the interview is rapid fire questions. These are one word or one phrase answers. You do not have to explain, but you can if you want to.
SOO JIN: Okay.
LAZOU: All right. What’s an Asian food that you’ll never get tired of?
SOO JIN: Noodles.
LAZOU: Popular answer. What’s an Asian food that you feel you should like but don’t
SOO JIN: Rice.
LAZOU: Really? That is interesting. Rice is my one thing that I could never get tired of. What is your favorite book at the moment?
SOO JIN: My favorite book, I have to say, I’m biased. My own book,
LAZOU: Fair enough.
SOO JIN: “Where I Belong: Healing Trauma, Embracing Asian American Identity”. I love it because I can just read all the stories over and over again and I don’t read the part where i wrote I’m reading the part where everyone else is telling about their stories.
LAZOU: Yeah. What is something that you do to take care of your own mental health?
SOO JIN: Hiking.
LAZOU: And lastly, what’s on your playlist these days? What are you listening to?
SOO JIN: Oh by the time this podcast is released, it might be out of season, but all the holiday jazz is all I’ve been listening to, I’m in the vibe.
LAZOU: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It was such a pleasure talking to you.
SOO JIN: Yes, likewise. Thank you so much for having me.
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