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TRIGGER WARNING:
We talk about 9/11 on this episode.
GUEST BIO
Ms. Gill is an accomplished professional with exemplary executive experience. In her role as Executive Director, she is responsible for executing and overseeing programs related to policy, research, education, civic engagement, and youth leadership for the Sikh American community. Prior to coming on board as Executive Director of SALDEF (Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund (SALDEF)), Ms. Gill was a volunteer trainer for SALDEF conducting Sikh Awareness training around the country for schools, law enforcement, and state/local government and she worked with the New Jersey Attorney General’s office to develop statewide curricula. She also helped to establish the SikhLEAD New Jersey program which encourages civic engagement among Sikh students.
Additionally, Ms. Gill ran her own company and served as president and CEO of PARS Environmental, Inc., an environmental consulting firm in New Jersey from 2003 – to 2017. During that period the company experienced significant growth. In 2014, Ms. Gill was selected as ”Small Business Person of the Year” by the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA), representing the State of New Jersey at the National SBA conference in Washington, D.C. Ms. Gill was also selected among the Best 50 Women in Business by NJBiz and listed among the top 40 Entrepreneurs under 40 by NJBiz the same year.
Ms. Gill served as a board member of The ONE Project, an interfaith and community coalition organized to address social needs through education and volunteerism, and was the president and a founding member of Inspiring South Asian American Women (ISAAW) an organization dedicated to promoting civic and community engagement among South Asian American women. In 2018, Ms. Gill was named among the top 50 most influential people of color in New Jersey by ROI-NJ.
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DEFINITIONS
- TSA: Transportation Security Administration is an agency of the United States Department of Homeland Security that was created as a response to 9/11
- Gurdwara: A place of worship for Sikhs.
TAKEAWAYS
- Most Americans know very little of Sikhism and probably couldn’t identify them or their articles of faith. I will link to the “Turban Myths” study by Stanford and SALDEF in the show notes.
- Sikhs are often confused with Muslims, and many Sikhs became victims of Islamophobic hate crimes.
- As leaders, we should examine how our workplace is structured, and whether we can eliminate barriers that some employees face so that everyone can thrive.
- Getting to know even just the basics of a community’s culture goes a long way to prevent misunderstandings and reduce fear and distrust. SALDEF’s trainings at the TSA, FBI, Police departments and other agencies have helped significantly reduce undue escalations when encountering Sikh Americans.
- It’s always a good idea to have trainings facilitated by people who are local to the community you’re training, or who have ground knowledge of the day-to-day situations faced by the people you’re training, using relevant hypothetical situations.
- Preserving our culture does not mean we have to keep the bad parts too.
- Providing access to mental health resources that are culturally sensitive and timely are a key component to creating safer communities.
Further reading:
CONTACT
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Host: Lazou
Additional Music Links:
- Nuances Podcast – curated Spotify | Apple Music playlists with past guests, hosts & more Asian diaspora artists.
- Gravity Can Wait by 23rd Hour.
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This episode is brought to you by 23rdhr.com.
Video with captions
Transcript
Lazou: Our guest today is Kiran Kaur Gill. Ms. Gill is the executive director at SALDEF, the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, where she oversees and executes programs related to policy, research, education, civic engagement, and youth leadership in the Sikh American community. Prior to her executive role, she volunteered at SALDEF to create and conduct Sikh awareness training around the country for schools, law enforcement, and state and local governments. She worked with the New Jersey Attorney General’s office to develop statewide curricula and helped establish the SikhLEAD New Jersey program, which encourages civic engagement. among Sikh students. Additionally, Ms. Gill ran her own company PARS Environmental Incorporated from 2003 to 2017. Ms. Gill served as a board member of The One Project, an interfaith and community coalition organized to address social needs through education and volunteerism, and was the president and founding member of the Inspiring South Asian American Women. Her leadership and business acumen has won her numerous accolades Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. it’s great to have you.
Kiran: Thank you so much for having me here.
Lazou: Let’s start from the beginning. tell us about your journey as an Asian American woman. Where’d you grow up? What was that like? And what has it been like being a Sikh American?
Kiran: So I was born in the nation’s capital, so we were in Washington, DC. My parents lived in Maryland at the time. Spent several years there. And because of my dad’s job, we moved around quite a bit. We moved from the DC area to Toronto, Canada for a couple years, then down to Tampa, Florida, and then to New Jersey.
And then I was back to DC and now I’m actually out in LA for this job. So really
Lazou: Oh wow.
Kiran: lot of traveling. I think it’s really interesting, the experience of being an Asian American especially in different places. I distinctly remember the move from both Toronto to Florida and then Florida to New Jersey.
The school that I was in in Florida, I think I was one of two minorities in the entire school. Much less South Asian, much less Sikh. And I think there’s always a sense of having to feel like you have to explain who you are. especially for
first Asian-American, south Asian Americans, and even more so Sikh Americans of being a minority of a minority.
Sikhism has very distinct articles of faith. A lot of times men look different and have those distinct articles of faith, although they can be worn by women such as a turban. The turban and the beard is quite distinct. But even as a woman, you know, just explaining the long hair, the Kara, which is a metal bracelet, which again is another religious article of faith.
Those are things early on you try to almost have like a elevator pitch for who you are, which is really interesting. Who you are your cultural and religious background, because it it does come up. And sometimes that can be an extra burden that we have to bear because we’re absent in many ways from the media and public consciousness. And I think that does make it hard. When I moved from uh, Florida to New Jersey, New Jersey does have a growing Asian and South Asian population. So I was one of several South Asians in Asians in the school that I was in.
But still, you still have that having to explain yourself it is less. In that phase of middle school, high school, trying to figure out who you are on so many levels. Especially in high school when I was surrounded by other South Asians, both Sikh and from other religious groups, and parts of India, trying to figure out what that meant, how that figured into our identity and how we wanted to lean in. Some people really leaned in and some people chose to not lean into that part of their identity.
And I think it’s just an in interesting choice that we make or sometimes we feel we have to make as we grow up and try to develop into who we are and define our values.
Lazou: Yeah. I’m originally from Toronto as well, I’m curious what your experience was like in Toronto. Was it different?
Kiran: Toronto, we were only there for about two years. we lived in Mississauga at the time. Since there is a larger Punjabi and Sikh population, I saw a lot more influences of Sikhism and certain values, that the faith subscribes to, at least where the spaces we were in.
In New Jersey, at least the area I was in, there was much more diversity in terms of the mix of South Asians So I think that was also a learning for me, and that was neat to learn about other cultures and faiths that are practiced in the Indian diaspora.
Lazou: Yeah. a lot of people don’t know much about Sikhism. So for the benefit of our listeners who may not be familiar, can you tell us a little bit about your faith and maybe its core beliefs?
Kiran: Sure. And I love how you preface that how a lot of people don’t know a lot about Sikhism. SALDEF did a study in 2012 in conjunction with Stanford University called Turban Myth, it was to see what the the knowledge was in the broader public about Sikhs, if people really understood the faith or understood the articles of faith in Sikhism.
And I think it was 70% of individuals couldn’t define a Sikh or identify articles of faith. So there is definitely a lot of work to be done there. Sikhism is a fairly newer faith. It’s a little over 500 years old. it was founded in the Punjab area of what is now between present day India and present day Pakistan.
So in northern India. It was founded by a man named Guru Nanak. And he really created a philosophy based on a couple key values. One is this idea of oneness and connectivity. So believing that we are all part of the same essence. We’re all one. Around selfless service, seva, and really looking at I’ll say equality, but also looking at the social structures at the time.
One of the things that he really pushed back upon, which unfortunately still continues today to a certain extent, is the caste system in India. So really coming out with this philosophy of being one, that everybody has equal access to spiritual enlightenment, and everybody has value and worth and is able to go on a spiritual journey.
And that really pushed against some of the norms at the time, or challenged some of the norms at the time. He also believed in gender equality. And so a lot of really progressive values that we see people talking about today that were discussed 500 years ago.
He was followed by nine other gurus who subscribe to the same philosophy and we believe are spiritual teachers who are enlightened. So we don’t believe they’re God, but we do believe they’re humans who have reached spiritual enlightenment. And the 10th Guru formalized this philosophy into a religion.
On one of the holiest days, Vaisakhi. So on Vaisakhi, there’s a festival in that area of Punjab. And he brought people together and really formalized the faith and asked his followers to come forward and to sacrifice themselves for the faith.
And not only subscribe to following the values, but also wearing articles of faith so we’re easily identifiable. It’s really a way of saying we’re committed to these particular values of sikhism. Things like standing up against oppression, things such as selfless service. These values that the Guru Nanak, the other gurus had been teaching for several years prior to the 10th Guru really formalizing this.
And so the five articles of faith that followers that were baptized at the time were asked to keep: one is uncut hair (kesh). And that symbolizes spirituality. I mentioned the uncut hair, but that is often under a turban, which is probably the most visible articles of faith. And that at the time of the grooves, that was a symbol for royalty. So again, it’s this idea of really emphasizing everyone’s worth.
The second is Kangha, which is a small comb, and it’s kept a lot of times in the hair, and that symbolizes the cleanliness and discipline. The third is Kara. It’s a steel bracelet worn on the dominant hand, and it’s a reminder to do good deeds, to do what’s right. That’s also a symbol of the a universal or unending nature of God.
So we in that circle shape. The fourth is a kirpan, which is a small sword. And it’s a reminder to stand up against oppression. And at that time of the 10th guru, there was a lot of both religious oppression, cultural oppression from rulers in that area. So that was something that was particularly meaningful.
And then the fifth was kacchera, which is um, under shorts and its symbols readiness and discipline. So those are the most visible part of Sikhism. But behind that is really this concept of oneness and spirituality, remembering God at all times and remembering that connection we have between one another. The one last thing I’ll just add about Sikhism is that a lot of times you can tell Sikhs because of their middle or last name.
On that Vaisakhi Guru Gobind Singh gave the name Singh to all Sikh men and Kaur to all Sikh women. Singh means lion and Kaur means princess. And it was a way to again memorialize this idea of equality.
And it was a push against the caste system because a lot of times in South Asian culture, you can tell by somebody’s last name what caste they are. So by saying regardless of what your lineage is, you are a lion or you’re a princess, it really reinforces this idea that we’re all worthy and we’re all equal, rather than looking at last names that people are ascribing some sort of value to.
After the last guru of the Sikhs had the Vaisakhi event and formed the Khalsa which is the the body of baptized Sikhs , he also put all the teachings in a book called the Guru Granth Sahib.
So if you go to a Sikh Gurdwara typically for a service, you’ll see readings from the Guru Granth Sahib.
Lazou: I’m glad you brought up the name because one of my friends told me about that and I thought that was really cool that women don’t necessarily take their husband’s name. They have their own name. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. So you’re also involved in a lot of interfaith community organizing.
One of the things I find fascinating is how all the religions, if you look at the core teachings, a lot of it is very similar. So what does Sikhism teach that you’ve found is very similar across other religions?
Kiran: I think at the essence those enlightened teachers or they use different names in different faith, but I do believe everyone is getting to this idea of oneness and connectivity. I know Christians talk about fellowship and a lot of the Abrahamic faith, they talk about brothers and sisters. Hindu faith talks about oneness as well to a certain extent. That is something that a lot of the faiths have in common. I think the way that we express that outwardly and go on our journeys is a bit different. But I think that is something that I’ve seen particularly in the interfaith work and those that are really working in community really practicing their faith, they really believe in that connection and service.
And I see that I think that’s a beautiful thing and that gives me hope for the interfaith work that we’re doing. Faith’s connecting across different issues to really make a difference in broader issues that are affecting our lives.
Lazou: Yeah. One of my goals for this podcast this season is to help reclaim what it means to be American, what it means to be patriotic, what are American values as something that isn’t monopolized by white conservatives, but shared among all American people, especially including people of color, because we’re often left out of this conversation. So what does patriotism look like to you?
Kiran: for me patriotism really looks like civic engagement. It looks like the advocacy work that I know a lot of us are doing are involved in. It’s getting involved in the system and understanding that there’s flaws in the way that things were done being realistic and being truthful about the journey of America, but working to make it better.
And I think I’ve seen that across communities. I’ve certainly seen it especially I think it’s sort of this energy in the last couple years from the A A P I community, partially because of negative experiences that have been happening, but really communities coalescing around this idea that if we work together, we can make substantive change and really hold America to its promise.
And I’ll put promise in quotes because I know who you ask, who will depend on whether they believe this is a promise, but I believe it’s a promise of working towards a truly inclusive democracy.
So many of our families came here believing in the American Dream. My parents came here as professionals in the sixties and seventies and, especially in the last couple years the Trump administration, sort of the xenophobia and the anti-immigrant rhetoric, I would see the pain on their faces because there’s a question of is this American dream real and will it be able to manifest for future generations?
And I think our work, especially those that are here and that are familiar with the system and that can vote and can exercise our rights, that we have to do that to the fullest. And I think to me that’s true patriotism.
Lazou: That’s a wonderful answer..
Is there a memory that stands out to you as a moment where you felt proud to be American?
Kiran: I think for me when Obama was elected seeing somebody of color seeing somebody that had a different path. I mean, He even lived Southeast Asia and actually my parents grew up in Malaysia and Singapore. So that was a interesting connection to see..
That for me and for many others was a moment where we started seeing possibilities actually materialize. Say, okay, This is something that we can do these are spaces we can be in. Sometimes it’s hard to enter conversations because the language isn’t there.
And I’ll see if I can elaborate on that a little bit more. A lot of times, especially as a minority, you’ll have a unique experience, but it’s hard sometimes to enter the conversation if it’s guided by questions comments, philosophies that in no way pertain to your real life experience. It’s hard to find that entry point. And I think seeing him get elected and the types of conversations that were happening in this country allowed many of us to feel like there was more of an entry point, and that we did have important contributions to make in regards to the policy and the direction of this country.
Lazou: Yeah, definitely opened up a lot more conversation around race and, even while he was campaigning. That was different from previous campaigns for sure
Kiran: yeah. things that experienced, I was like, oh, hey, I’ve experienced that too. I didn’t know it was okay to talk about that or be public or now because it was on the national stage, like discussing it among friend groups or, I think it did really shine a light on a lot of things that were happening in this country, continue to happen.
Lazou: Yeah. continuing in that theme, the phrase American values evokes very different things for different people. What does it mean to you? What would you like American values to stand for?
Kiran: So when I think of American values, I think of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. that’s the first thing that comes to mind. But all of those things, does it really apply to everyone in this country? Is everyone allowed to experience life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the same way?
And really for me, American values are, again, working towards ensuring that the American dream is accessible to everyone.
And I think that’s where we have some work to do.
Lazou: definitely. Now you have been in numerous positions of power. If you are comfortable sharing, what has been your experience as a woman of color in those positions of power, both in business and in social justice spaces, do you feel like you have to approach things differently because you’re a woman even in Sikh American spaces? Do you feel like you have to approach things differently from the men what has that been like?
Kiran: Yes. I come to this work from running my own company for 15 years. I was in highly male dominated spaces. Sometimes it’s so pervasive in our culture that, things that you see in the workplace, in client meetings, at least in the engineering consulting field. I think there is a lot of catering to men in the way that the work structure is set up and the expectations in the spaces where you network all of those things.
So I had 15 years of, okay, this is the work expectation. Devote 110% of your time to work all the time, be available to go golfing and like those types of things.
I remember client dinners with the big steak dinner and beer. And nothing against any of those things, they’re all great in their own way. But when I think of cultural shifts in work environment, in what’s acceptable in the way that we talk in the workplace and the way that we structure our work. It is interesting to see ways that it can be structured differently. And in both of those spaces, I think I did bring in a more womanly touch in terms of my approach to collaboration, my approach to flexibility in the workplace, ensuring the best ideas of the day win and ensuring that everyone is given equal time to share regardless of gender, background or seniority. That’s one aspect.
The second aspect is in community, and I think sometimes we don’t talk about this cuz it’s tough.
It doesn’t make us look great. But I’ll say South Asian culture, I don’t wanna put it on all Asian culture, but it can be sometimes patriarchal. Even though Sikhism is very much a religion that speaks about equality. Sometimes being a young woman trying to ensure that my voice is heard can be challenging in certain spaces.
But I will also say that I’ve received a lot of support by men in the community as well that want to see young women in leadership positions. And I don’t know if I should still put young by my name, but women in leadership positions. That’s also been really nice to see. And I’ll say also in my work career, I also had some men that were champions for women’s leadership.
And that’s what we need.
Lazou: Yeah. There’s definitely a lot of patriarchy and many of the Asian cultures and it’s a theme that comes up a lot with our guests Preserving our culture, but also not preserving the bad parts,
Kiran: Yeah, exactly. Can we, maybe we should agree which parts we’re preserving. Totally agree.
Lazou: So what advice do you have for other Asian American women who aspire to be a leader in their community like you and who are trying to navigate those male dominated and often white dominated spaces?
Kiran: Finding a good support system is always helpful. There’s no sort of magic formula to navigating those spaces. I think being confident in what you have to say, showing up with facts, depending on the spaces, with clear policy goals, clear objectives as to what you wanna accomplish. How we can work together, collaborate, that’s helpful. What we have to understand is that this work will be tough. There can be cultural barriers to women’s leadership in certain spaces, but what we’re doing is we’re paving the way for the women that come behind us. So the work is important.
Setting those boundaries, setting the norms, and changing the norms is incredibly important. And that’s the work we’re asking women leaders to do I think find some wonderful, support where you can and believe in yourself.
There’s a lot of people that are unfortunately gonna try to tear you down, but if you keep showing up and you are on point at some point, they’re going to take notice. And I remember that with my company, it was initially hard to, network and to get things going, but I kept showing up and showing that I was serious.
And people took notice when we started growing, when we became a national company, when we increased employees. And the proof is in the results.
Lazou: Yeah, for sure. Now going back to SALDEF. SALDEF started their law enforcement partnership in 1999. What was the Sikh American experience in those days and why was there a need for SALDEF? What were the issues you were trying to address at the time?
Kiran: The issue is lack of awareness of who Sikhs are and particularly our articles of faith. It’s important because, people a lot of times do rely on law enforcement in different situations. And one incident in particular is what kicked off our law enforcement training program.
There was a Sikh individual in Texas who called law enforcement after there was a break-in at his home and law enforcement came, searched his home, and found a kirpan, which is a religious article of faith. And they arrested him. Obviously this is the opposite of what you would hope for if you’re calling on the police in this traumatic situation or your house is broken into.
And there just wasn’t awareness. And so SALDEF got involved and we explained the religious articles of faith and what they meant. The individual was released, but it was clear that there was a huge gap in knowledge of our community. And it was really necessary to share and for law enforcement to understand how to engage with the community overall.
That’s our goal of the training and we continue to do that throughout the
Lazou: So soon after that program launched in 99, September 11 happened, triggered a lot of Islamophobia xenophobia against South Asians in general, including the Sikh American community. How drastic a change was this for your community?
Kiran: It was huge. Like overnight, people who really didn’t know who Sikh are or, think about the association of Sikh and where they come from. There was this incorrect association with terrorism because you saw the pictures of Osama bin Laden being shown over and over on tv with a long beard and a turban which does look similar to the articles of faith.
And because there just wasn’t broad awareness people would see images of men in particular with turbans and beards and the association was terrorists. So you saw extraordinary amount of hate crimes and hate incidents that were getting reported in the days and weeks following 9/11.
And we continue to see hate crimes rampant against our community. But for organizations like SALDEF we went into emergency response mode trying to help and support our community across the country. So offering legal services, victim support services really trying to help navigate people through these really horrific experiences.
We actually just came out with mental health resources as well. That’s also a key part of healing and providing community support. Going from relative anonymity to the next day being labeled a terrorist.
We had people that were just traveling for work. There was one person, Sher Singh who was traveling on the train and he was arrested. And there was a newspaper article that indicated that they had caught one of the 9/11 terrorists. That was circulated I think for weeks, even after that was showed to be incorrect.
He was actually taken down the police station and released. It was just a really horrific time for the community. And I think there was a certain assumption you had about the rights you have as an American and the belonging that you have in this country that’s just such dramatic change where it’s, really really was a huge shock to the community.
Lazou: Yeah. I imagine that would change your relationship to America.
Kiran: Yeah. It’s interesting. I was actually in New York during the time of 9/11 I live pretty close to the World Trade Center and I remember seeing people come up Broadway covered in ashes, we saw people, jump from the towers.
We, we saw, all of it, it was horrific.
But I also, grew up in the eighties and nineties and I saw a pre 9/11 world. And I think, you know, for a lot of us that are like of my age group, we question what happened with 9/11 and we question whether we will truly be accepted as Americans. And that was a feeling that a lot of folks had. People were flying American flags. Really trying to show that we are American, which is not something we should have to do, but that was a feeling that there was a need.
I feel like younger Sikh Americans that grew up in the wake of 9/11 and after 9/11, really seeing these hate crimes up close not having context of a pre 9/11 world, there is much more of a feeling of, is it possible for us to belong? How does that look? In some ways, it’s sad that they had to experience hate incidents, hate crime, bullying in schools, all of those things.
But I think it’s also spurred a new generation of advocacy and activism in our community of younger people really wanting to get engaged because they’ve seen the repercussions of, lack of engagement or lack of coordinating engagement. in previous generations,
Lazou: Yeah. So would you say that before 9/11 you felt like you did belong to America
Kiran: I don’t know that I felt that I belonged, but I didn’t feel like I was going to walk into a room and be attacked or I didn’t feel that people looked at me and my family as terrorists.
That’s a stark difference, right? Before, I was like, I don’t know if people understand the full me or understand my background or my religion or that there would even be an expectation that they would, because there’s just, again, such a lack of not only understanding, but, visibility in media and such a erasure in our history.
But walking into spaces and feeling yeah, that, that level of hostility, constant hostility. I think that was new.
Lazou: Yeah. So you’ve run these training programs and you’ve trained over a hundred thousand law enforcement officers and agents at local and federal agencies, including F B I and the tsa. As an organization, what have you guys learned, at SALDEF through those trainings? Maybe what have you learned about how law enforcement feels and interacts with your community
Kiran: I think it really does make a difference. You gave the example of law enforcement and t s a as well. I’ll speak to t s A for a minute because that also relates to 9/11 because not only were we having issues of hate crimes and targeting of the community, we were also having issues of being surveilled by the government and TSA screenings were a nightmare for many Sikh Americans. And we worked extensively with TSA to train them, for them to understand Sikh articles of faith appropriate screening procedures how to respect and treat community members with dignity as they go through this security screening process.
And I think if you ask any Sikh American about what that looked like in the months after 9/11 to what it looks like now, there is a stark difference. And that difference is marked improvement. With law enforcement, I don’t think it’s as stark, because not every community member has the same experience with law enforcement, but for the areas that we are training in, we aren’t hearing cases like what I mentioned, where an individual calls law enforcement and then is handcuffed for articles of, of faith or for, who they are or for things that should be general knowledge about Sikhism.
So I think that’s really good to see. In 2019, we’d actually worked with the attorney general’s office in the state of New Jersey. So Gurbir Grewal was the former AG and he himself was a Sikh. And we developed statewide training for all law enforcement in New Jersey.
And I think that was really wonderful And I remember after we had developed that training presenting to a huge group of law enforcement officers and the feedback that we got was so positive about what they learned and how they felt that it would be useful.
And, interestingly enough, we also do surveys after we do the training about what people learn. And particularly in the law enforcement setting, but also across other agencies. So many of the comments shared are those of appreciation and really saying that without the training they would have no idea who Sikhs are.
So it speaks to this lack of awareness and there’s only certain, ways that you can. Either you know somebody who’s Sikh or if you happen to learn something in school. A lot of schools don’t teach or share anything about religions or not extensively. So this is something that I think is really valuable and helps them do better community engagement.
Lazou: That’s awesome to hear that the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. How long is the training?
Kiran: We customize it. Usually it’s about an hour and a half to two hours. It can be an hour we’ve done for the attorney general’s training, I think it was like three hours. We made that more extensive. So it can be really customized depending on what the agency is looking for.
And in addition to sharing information about Sikhism, about our articles of faith, about community engagement, really try to go through specific scenarios so they understand what that engagement should look like, the dos and the don’ts.
It looks a certain way for F B I, it looks like a certain way for tsa. You work with the agency so it is truly relevant to what they’re seeing day-to-day.
Lazou: Yeah. That’s great. You’ve also done these in schools across the country. How is teaching kids different from teaching adults in your experience? Was one easier than the other?
Kiran: I like both. I like teaching in schools. I think the questions we get from the kids are always really interesting and and cute. But yeah, I mean the questions we get from law enforcement and from the agencies in addition to Sikhism is really about how do we like, interact and specifically around engagement with articles of faith and screenings, certain protocols. With kids it’s more just awareness. They may have a kid in their class that wears a turban or a and they wanna know what that means. So the focus is really giving them that overview instead of making that Sikh student in the class feel like they have to answer every question known to man about Sikhism.
That there’s some basis so their peers and other students are able to understand. A lot of times when that understanding is missing, that can cause, issues. And once that’s there, I think that does help eliminate teasing or in more extreme cases, bullying.
Lazou: Yeah. So have you had difficult conversations or maybe where things were escalating? Have you learned about some ways to deal with situations where maybe the person you’re trying to educate isn’t receptive?
Kiran: Yeah, we have different engagement techniques. One thing that we always try to do is we try to have trainers from that area, or have knowledge of that local area so it’s as relevant as possible. And so they have connections beyond just the training. So if they have questions or comments.
We have had some police department that have not been super receptive. Explain to them what our reality is like and why this training is necessary. We’re not trying to give them an extra thing that they have to learn like extra work on their plate, but why it’s necessary their perspective too.
So I think that helps. But yeah, we see different levels of engagement throughout the country but I would say as of now, it’s overwhelmingly positive. It’ll be interesting to see, as we continue our engagement, we know there’s been increase in xenophobia and our country is more divided on certain issues.
But I think at this point we’ve been fairly lucky around that.
Lazou: So when you have cases where, you know, departments or schools or school districts are not responsive or, they’re not engaging or they’re not connecting, and I’m sure there’s days where it’s like, man, that was a tough one. How do you manage days like this? What are you doing to take care of your own? Mental health.
Kiran: Yeah, for me, like just stepping away and looking at the bigger picture. This work in the advocacy space? Maybe as opposed to other spaces, I can certainly speak to consulting. It takes a lot of time. Progress sometimes can feel slow, so I think it’s really stepping away, looking at the bigger picture.
Lazou: That’s a good point. Stepping back and keeping the bigger picture in focus. Many Asian cultures historically have not been equipped to access mental health care, and there’s still a lot of stigma around it. I was wondering if that’s also the case in the Sikh community.
Kiran: Yeah, we have definitely seen that in the Sikh community. Especially as a newer immigrant you know, there’s a focus on achievements and not really being fully open about struggles.
And that can be tough because there do need to be spaces where you can talk about how we’re feeling, where we can share struggles and get support. And we know that in the mental health space, and we saw this after a lot of the tragedies that we’ve experienced in the Sikh community.
There was a mass shooting at the FedEx facility in 2021, which individuals passed four Sikh Americans. In the Oak Creek shooting in 2012 where seven people passed. We really saw in those moments, like there weren’t culturally competent mental health resources or enough providers that could understand the cultural context and also in some cases where needed speak in language, in our case a lot of Sikh Americans speak Punjabi. So there, there is this need and this gap in the community and SALDEF is trying to fill that. We have worked on producing culturally competent mental health resources, and we are working on having those conversations in community and trying to destigmatize it.
But it,
Lazou: It’s a process
Kiran: yeah, it’s a process. Thank you. That’s well said. It’s a process. It’s an ongoing process.
Lazou: for sure. Yeah. One of the interesting things I read about Sikhism is it’s focus on life, like the present life and not the afterlife, which is what many other religions focus on. They said that when somebody dies, the community gathers in worship, but it’s a celebration rather than a mourning. And that is completely the opposite of what I grew up with. I’m wondering if you want to elaborate on that philosophy.
Kiran: Sure. One of the interesting things about Sikh philosophy is that you can really experience spiritual enlightenment in this lifetime and live in bliss, or, in Abrahamic faith, there’s this idea of heaven or hell.
We believe you can experience that heaven that bliss, that enlightenment here in this lifetime. And I think it’s for that reason that when somebody passes, it’s just their body that is no longer living. But their soul and their essence is still there. That’s what we acknowledge.
So if you go to a Sikh funeral there will be hymns sung, there’ll be community congregating. A lot of times, full congregations will be there. And It’s an acknowledgement of the passing, but it’s not mourning in the same way.
Because there’s that continuity.
Lazou: Do you feel that this approach makes the grief process easier?
Kiran: I don’t know if grieving is ever easy, but I think it gives the community a different perspective. I think when we’ve seen tragedy and we’ve experienced grief in the community, for those that are here for survivors, for community members there’s really a sense that we want to ensure that whatever the circumstances and the two that I gave you earlier example of Oak Creek Wisconsin, the mass shooting there, that we really want to work to ensure that nobody else and no other communities have to experience that type of grief. So a lot of that grief frustration sorrow, and in some cases even anger depending on the person. That’s not something that we subscribe to on a spiritual level, but everybody’s human right.
That, that turns into how can we advocate, how we, how can we ensure these things don’t happen again? And how can we use our time and energy to really work with the broader community, be in these spaces and promote progress around a lot of these issues. Especially around issues of hate that our community has experienced.
Lazou: Yeah. What are some changes you would like to see when it comes to access to mental health in America?
Kiran: I think there just needs to be more discussion about mental health as a starter. There’s a lot of issues that are mental health related that we don’t make the connection and we don’t have discussions around. I would like to see more mental health support.
Like to see more culturally competent mental health resources and more access. There really needs to be more infrastructure built around mental health because it touches every aspect of our lives. In so many parts of the country, social services are being cut in favor of supposed community safety initiatives, but mental health and wellness that is core to issues of safety and security as well.
Ensuring that we have communities where people feel like they’re supported, where people feel like they’re included. Where if there’s issues that people are experiencing, there’s places to go and get help. Those are all really critical aspects of community building. And happier communities if you look at some of those international studies and where the US falls on some of those. We’re certainly not near the top in many cases. So I think that those are some key things, but a much more heavier focus and in addition to more resources and funding devoting to developing mental health infrastructure across the United States.
Lazou: Yeah. One very common thing we’ve heard on this podcast is people saying that a lot of times when they have sought out mental health help that it hasn’t been culturally sensitive and that makes it even harder to then, want to pursue mental health help because what’s the point if the person you’re talking to is telling you to do things that culturally you just don’t feel like you can?
Kiran: Yeah, Absolutely. When you sit down with a therapist, it’s so essential that they understand the context of the situation, right? To be able to help guide you and be able to provide the appropriate support.
And if somebody doesn’t understand, that’s a huge gap in their ability to help. Yeah I totally agree with you.
Lazou: Yeah. And there’s just so many layers of roadblocks. If you are somebody who’s in need of mental health support, the last thing you wanna do is sit through phone trees and call, three or four or five different people to get it approved by your insurance and find a provider that is in network. All of these things, there’s just so many hurdles that people have to overcome to even get to the first appointment. So definitely a lot of work to be done in terms of having access and having access to somebody who will know what to say that is culturally relevant.
Kiran: Definitely, and I a hundred percent agree with you about the phone trees and how many times can you press one or two, a lot of times to be like directed to voicemail message. This has gotta change because if people are seeking support and a lot of times even getting to the place where they decide to seek support is difficult difficult in itself.
And then having to run around and try to figure out the systems and being able to access that support, I think we really need to see significant improvement there.
Lazou: Yeah, and I’m sure many people get to that point where they make a call, maybe they make the second call and then they just give up because it’s just one more thing that they just don’t feel like they have the energy to do.
I have sought mental health help before, and I have gone through this as well.
the only reason I went through is because I was very adamant about it from childhood. So I was like, okay, I’m gonna do this no matter what it takes. But I wondered throughout this process, how many people get to this point and just give up because it’s so frustrating to deal with this system.
Kiran: Yeah, definitely a hundred percent. I agree.
Lazou: yeah. We like to wrap up the interview with our rapid fire section. These are one word or one phrase answers. You don’t have to explain, but you can if you want to.
Kiran: Okay, sure.
Lazou: All right. What’s an Asian food that you should like, but don’t?
Kiran: Oh my God, I love all Asian food. Okay. There’s an Indian Punjabi vegetable. It’s called Karela . It’s like bitter gourd and it’s not, yeah not my favorite. I don’t know if I should like it. actually, let me change my answer, because my parents are from Malaysian, Singapore.
They are big fans of Durian
Lazou: Mm-hmm.
Kiran: not a fan, and all my cousins there love that fruit
Lazou: Fair enough. What’s an Asian food that you’ll never get tired of?
Kiran: dumplings.
Lazou: Oh, that’s a good choice. when have you seen yourself represented in media and you thought, oh, that was really cool.
Kiran: when I first saw Bendit, like Beckham, because I was also an athlete in high school. And so when I saw that, I was like, oh my goodness, a South Asian Sikh girl who plays sports. So that was, definitely one. The other one it came to mind we were on a youth leadership program and one of the Sikh leaders under our program actually tried out for American Idol.
So that was another cool thing to see in terms
Lazou: awesome.
Kiran: Sikh. Yeah. Yeah.
Lazou: What’s your favorite environmental project that you worked on with your company?
Kiran: I think stormwater management. We worked with e P A and we were looking at innovative solutions, and we had done work after hurricane Sandy. I think it was really important in the state, so it would probably be one of the ones that stuck out for me as being really important.
Lazou: And finally, who is someone who’s currently inspiring you in the Sikh community?
Kiran: Ooh. Who’s currently inspiring me in this community? There’s just so many incredible individuals.
Lazou: Oh, you can name a few if you want. It doesn’t have to be just one.
Kiran: I think what I really love to see is really making their mark. So seeing what Rupi Kaur has done. I love how she’s the poet, her poetry, and then how she’s weaved in aspects of the philosophy and the faith in really discovering exploring who she is and womanhood.
So I think that’s that’s really cool.
I think it was really inter interesting to see Lilly Singh when she got the talk show and now I think she’s doing a couple other interesting projects.
Simran Jeet Singh I know just came out with a book and he was speaking at south by Southwest. I just think that there’s a lot of really interesting voices in our community.
Oh, another one is Vishavjit Singh, who was the Sikh Captain America. Awesome to see him take on that persona and really challenge stereotypes in those ways. Yeah, I could probably list on and on, but I really like to see community like entering these spaces and authentically sharing who they are and sharing more about the community and about Sikhism.
Lazou: Awesome. Thank you so much for doing this.
Kiran: Thank you. Really appreciate it.
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